Midi for guitar synthesizer input

[jgallows]

I use a Roland GR-30 guitar synthesizer. I have it set up fairly well so I rarely get any glitches and it plays smoothly over midi (so much that I don't even see a point in later models). However, the pitch bends, slides and hammer-ons do not translate over very well.

I mostly use FL Studio and Cubase as my go to DAWs. In both of these and even in stand alone VSTi, if I bend one note it bends a whole chord. Typically the solution is to set a midi channel for each string on the guitar synthesizer, which will allow for polyphonic bending and better note articulation.

(I can not get bends to work at all in FL Studio, even with the guides I've seen.)

But this is a cumbersome solution for playing on the fly, especially within a larger project. Without this solution my guitar synthesizer gets awfully glitchy over midi if I don't turn off slides and bends (randomly glides to other notes if I don't).

Does there exist any midi software that is better for guitar synthesizer midi input? I would like to be able to control midi to the same extent I can control my onboard GR-30 sounds.

Insight is appreciated. Cheers.

[AdmiralQuality]

There are two modes that your guitar controller sends MIDI in. The default is POLY, where all 6 strings share the same MIDI channel, as polyphonic voices played by a single synth sound, controlled from a single keyboard would typically be. This however means they share a single pitch bend controller, so it's obviously not great for tracking a guitar that can bend notes individually. Other issues come up with the guitar's ability to play more than one of the same note. When a MIDI note-off comes in, which of the duplicate notes was it meant for? MIDI has no way to describe this on a single MIDI channel.

The other mode is MONO, which isn't monophonic, but rather, dedicates an individual MIDI channel to each string. Now each string is like its own separate monophonic instrument, they can all have unique pitch bends and there's no ambiguity about which string/voice is playing which note.

Then you need either a synthesizer that's designed to take MIDI guitar input across multiple channels. OR, you need to run 6 instances of your favorite synth, each playing a monophonic patch, and filter the MIDI from each channel to the appropriate synth instance. (Most hosts can do this easily.)

Synths I know of that take 6 channel input "out of the box" are ImpOscar, and my Poly-Ana. (Which can actually do up to 12 channels when POLYPHONY=1 and up to 6 when POLYPHONY=2. We actually have one customer who uses a MIDI-fied Chapman Stick to play all 12!) In both these cases, just send your multi-channel MIDI to the synth with a monophonic patch selected, and they'll automatically assign a dedicated monophonic voice to each channel. (Again, in Poly-Ana, you'll also want to keep the POLYPHONY knob at 2 or 1 to ensure enough voices are available. And make sure the POLY MODE is set to UNIson.)

And you'll also want to make sure that the pitch bend range on your instrument matches what your controller is set to. Usually 12 semitones is recommended for guitar controllers.

[jgallows]

Indeed to all of that, except I didn't know this about Poly-Ana (which is a great VSTi by the way). That is exactly what I'm looking for: VSTi that can function in this manner.

Cheers.

(if anyone else has any VSTi suggestions for a guitar-synthesizer player, I'd appreciate it)

[AdmiralQuality]

Indeed to all of that, except I didn't know this about Poly-Ana (which is a great VSTi by the way). That is exactly what I'm looking for: VSTi that can function in this manner.

Cheers.

(if anyone else has any VSTi suggestions for a guitar-synthesizer player, I'd appreciate it)

Try it out. (It's on sale too!) And I know the original ImpOscar does it, though I'm not sure lately. There are probably others.

And like I said, you can coax just about any software instrument into doing this, by using multiple instances and filtering the MIDI to them appropriately. And while you lose the ability to modify all the voices from one interface, you gain the ability to assign completely different sounds to different strings.

I saw Adrian Belew back in the late 80s and he played some amazing multitimbral guitar-synth stuff with totally different sounds assigned to each string, even percussion.

[AdmiralQuality]

Oh and regarding the GR-30 having better sounds internally. That might be because it's not MIDI, it's processing the individual hex outputs for each string. This lets you apply all kinds of audio effects that break up on chords but sound good on single notes. So in this mode, your actual strings are the oscillators and envelope controller. So nothing has to be interpreted, rather its 6 separate channels of processing. (Imagine 6 mono-synth pedals, hooked up to each string individually.)

I'm not sure offhand if the GR-30 offers that, but I think so. For pure MIDI driven sounds, it shouldn't matter if the GR-30 is rendering them, or an external hardware or soft-synth. MIDI is MIDI. So I'm guessing that it's actually being a guitar *processor* in the more responsive mode. (And yes, it would be really nice if these guitar interfaces provided 6 channel output so we could process it in our DAWs! None seem to however, though I suppose you could wire one up from a 13 pin connector pretty easily.)

[RunBeerRun]

I used to have the Roland Gr-20, and it was similar, internal sounds played normal, but MIDI out generally had a lack of hammer-ons and possibly pitchbend, I don't recall.

It had different settings on it which only applied to internal sounds and not to MIDI out. I just thought they didn't put as much features in that as they did in the MIDI only units, like the GI-20.

[jgallows]

(And yes, it would be really nice if these guitar interfaces provided 6 channel output so we could process it in our DAWs! None seem to however, though I suppose you could wire one up from a 13 pin connector pretty easily.)

That's interesting. I thought it was translating guitar-to-midi even in the hardware, I didn't realize it was actually processing the guitar like that. Is this just Roland models or does this apply to AXON and Moog's stuff as well?

What exactly do you mean wire up a 13 pin connector to make this happen? If it can be done pretty easily then I have some people to talk to about setting this up (if that happens I'll post schematics and video).

[jgallows]

I used to have the Roland Gr-20, and it was similar, internal sounds played normal, but MIDI out generally had a lack of hammer-ons and possibly pitchbend, I don't recall.

It had different settings on it which only applied to internal sounds and not to MIDI out. I just thought they didn't put as much features in that as they did in the MIDI only units, like the GI-20.

Are you using just the GI-20 now, something else or just not using guitar-synthesizers at this point? I was eyeing the GI-20 for a bit, thinking it might have more flexible midi. Plus it would be nice to get my go-to instrument off the dusty floor and onto a studio desk.

[jkleban]

So, I have been on the quest of MIDI guitar to create MIDI guitar parts for over a decade now... had the ROLAND and it was OK... moved over to AXON, it is leaps ahead in it's tracking ability and setting this up with a sampler playing program that has sampled each guitar string really gets you close....

However, my latest and greatest guitar to midi tool is MELODYNE with DNA... I haven't dialed in to close yet to see how it handles pitch bends (I think it might be a problem) but I can always edit a bend here or there with the AXON later on....

The cool thing about using DNA is that you can play the guitar part normally and then when complete, convert the audio file to a midi file and insert into your project. At this point though, it will require editing each note to the correct midi channel to trigger the correct sampled guitar string note. I know this sounds crazy but my goal is to create a SUPER REALISTIC guitar MIDI track so that later, you can try all different types of guitar samples on your performance.... and two, the GUITAR MIDI track then serves as a GUITAR TAB so other players can learn how the tracks are performed.

Haven't gotten too far down the road yet with Melodyne but what I have played with so far has blown me away.

Jim

[jgallows]

AXON seems to be great, too bad they're discontinued.

I use Melodyne for tuning up the odd sounds I find that aren't chromatic. This is great because I enjoy controlling a sampler via my Roland. But what is "DNA?" Link?

[AdmiralQuality]

(And yes, it would be really nice if these guitar interfaces provided 6 channel output so we could process it in our DAWs! None seem to however, though I suppose you could wire one up from a 13 pin connector pretty easily.)

That's interesting. I thought it was translating guitar-to-midi even in the hardware, I didn't realize it was actually processing the guitar like that. Is this just Roland models or does this apply to AXON and Moog's stuff as well?

What exactly do you mean wire up a 13 pin connector to make this happen? If it can be done pretty easily then I have some people to talk to about setting this up (if that happens I'll post schematics and video).

Yep. The 13 pin connector is pretty much standard for output from "hex" guitar pickups. (Where each string has its own tiny pickup, and almost always mounted right at, or even built-in to the bridge, to maximize harmonic content.)

So you should be able to build a 1 to 6 breakout cable from a 13 pin, to a handful of 1/4" connectors. Then go into any multichannel DAW with 6 or more inputs. But even nicer would be if they'd make these guitar boxes also be USB audio interfaces, so we could get all 6 outputs into the computer digitally without needing that many analog input channels. Would be handy, and would also let us write software pitch-to-MIDI converters that might rival the hardware performance. (Right now we can only practically do that monophonically. The guitar converter does it monophonically, times six.)

Here's the pinouts for the 13 pin connector. http://johnp.net/projects/guitar-synth/ ... nouts.html Let me know if it works!

[jkleban]

DNA is the polyphonic version of Melodyne... you can take a polyphonic track of a guitar, piano, organ whatever and DNA separates the audio into individual notes... it is AMAZING.

Go to the Celemony site and check it out.

Jim

[ew]

I used to have the Roland Gr-20, and it was similar, internal sounds played normal, but MIDI out generally had a lack of hammer-ons and possibly pitchbend, I don't recall.

It had different settings on it which only applied to internal sounds and not to MIDI out. I just thought they didn't put as much features in that as they did in the MIDI only units, like the GI-20.

It sounds to me like you didn't have it set up quite right, to be honest. While I never owned a GR-20, a feiend of mine still does, and I've never noticed any issues like that when I've used it to trigger external synths

I use a GR-55 nowdays, and still have a couple first gen pitch/MIDI converters sitting around as well (Roland GM-70 and an Ibanez MC1). All of them work fine with hammer-ons and individual bends; you just need to set them up correctly.

ew

[AdmiralQuality]

I just found out about Graphtech Ghost pickups. You can just replace your bridge saddles with little piezo pickups! Awesome!

http://www.graphtech.com/products.html?SubCategoryID=15

http://www.graphtech.com/products.html?SubCategoryID=19

Still, you need to make a big hole in the guitar to take the panel. Lot of work. I'd probably go for a Godin that has synth-access built-in. http://www.godinguitars.com/godingman.htm

http://www.godinguitars.com/godinxtsap.htm

Drool...

[jkleban]

Godin makes an electric guitar with the ghost pickup built in... I think it is the LA something model. I have it and it is great for MIDI.

Check it out.

Jim