Panning explanation needed for stereo field

[MyKill]

Howdy.
So I've been mixing for quite some time now. I got and Audio Engineering Degree about 10 years ago, but kind of lost focus for a few years. Now, I hitting ti full force again, but there is a part of panning I don't quite understand.

I recently read "The Art of Mixing" and "The Mixing Engineers Handbook", the former a version from '97 and the latter was a '99 version where DAW's were not quite the standard. Maybe it doesn't even matter, but a little help would be appreciated.

But, in the books, there is a lot of advice from "big time" producers about sitting things in a mix using panning. For example, David Pensado states (paraphrasing), "I've noticed that some mixers will get stereo synth and FX tracks and instinctively pan them hard left and hard right. What they end up with is a train wrecks out on the ends of the stereo spectrum... So what I do is take a stereo synth track and just toss one aside because I don't need it. I'll create my own stereo by adding a delay or a chorus or pre-delay reverb to give it a stereo image. I'll pan the dry signal to 10:00 and pan the fx signal to 9:00"

I understand the technique is called "fattening"; using a delay <30ms to create the fatter sound. I also understand understand Pan Law pretty well (I thought).

Here is my problem. A lot of the sample-based virtual instruments I use are recorded and "played" back through the sampler in stereo. If you pan anything to either side, you lose some of the soul of the sample. I guess I could run the output to a mono group and pan it from there, but I'm not sure if doing that would just "chop" off one side of the signal, or sum the stereo signal to a mono one.

The main dilemma is maybe I just don't quite understand Pan law as much as I believed. In Cubase There is Center, and 99 steps in either direction until you hit hard left or right. So, for example if I had a mono signal panned at L64, its not ONLY occupying one specific space, but is it subtracting equally from the right so that the signal is spread to R36? What about L65 -hard left? Is there nothing in that area, or is it slowly faded to L64?

What about a stereo source? Does it follow the same math?

Am I looking at the the completely wrong way?

I always get good advice here, so anything is appreciated!

[infectedpimple]

Well this is a confusing subject that boggles my mind--and trying to explain it boggles it even more, but I'll try my best to put it as I understand it and maybe it'll help you, hopefully without being too pedestrian in my delivery.

First, let's toss out pan law because it's not really so important here. Pan law just refers to how the DAW compensates for the fact that a mono signal gets louder when sent at the same amplitude to two channels than it would have been if sent to only one channel. What you're really after is understanding the mechanics of the common, single-knob pan control and how it relates to stereo sources, which I think can be best achieved by imagining a stereo recording of a three piece band, where we have drums panned hard left, guitars hard right, and bass at center. What we have is a recording with three basic components:

1) a set of information that is completely exclusive to the left channel.
2) another set of information that is completely exclusive to the right channel.
3) a common set of information that is shared between the two channels.

If we tell our drummer and guitarist to stop making noise for a minute, we're left with a mono bass recording. This is what "panning" actually affects--material that is connected to and shared between two channels. Our drums and guitar are only connected to one channel each, so when we use our single-knob pan control to pan left, we're trying to add the level drum signal from the right channel to the left, but since there's no connection there to begin with, there's no additional drum signal to add to what we already have---the drum volume remains the same. The guitar on the right is lowered in volume because the guitar signal isn't connect to the left channel and thus cannot cross over to that channel. This means the placement of the guitar in the stereo field remains unchanged because what's left of the guitar signal is still coming completely out of the right monitor, even though its quieter. If we keep trying to pan the guitar, we can just think of the guitar signal bleeding away out of the disconnected pipe onto floor until it's completely gone. The bass guitar however moves from center to left because the bass signal that was being sent to the right can cross over to the left since the bass is being shared between the two channels.

Basically our stereo pads and samples and such are the same thing. They have a part of the signal that is only connected to the left channel, a part that is only connected to the right channel, and a part that is shared between the two channels. The parts that aren't shared are obviously what give the material a stereo effect. So you're right that when you use the common single-knob pan on such material, you end up losing one side, while any of the shared material in the pad or sample is moved in the stereo field in the direction of the pan by subtracting the shared signal from one side and adding it to the other.

Summing to mono and then panning is a solution, but as you said, is not so ideal at times, because you sacrifice all your original width as well as suffering any cancellation that might occur as a result of how the material achieved its stereo effect in the first place. Still, a mono sum with a chorus or some other processing after the fact is a handy technique to keep in your toolbox because sometimes it is the ideal approach.

Mid-Side (or Mono-Stereo) processing can be very effective, but sometimes can be a little confusing to setup, especially if you go about it by using separate encoders and decoders--which gives you lots of flexibility but can also lead to lots of complications.

But what you're really after I think is a dual-pan setup. The easiest and most flexible way to go about it would be to just split your L and R channels to separate tracks and treat them each as mono sources, panning them separately to your liking, giving you full control of placement in the stereo field and the overall width of your source. Send them to a stereo group afterwards for any additional processing you might like to do on the whole thing. Some DAWs might employ a stereo-width control, which is essentially (I think) just a linked dual-pan control where panning one channel in one direction pans the opposite channel in the opposite direction, which can be used in conjunction with the standard single-knob pan control to pretty much the same effect.

I hope that helps at least a bit or, if not, is so completely the opposite of helpful that it compels someone with more expertise to come undo the damage of my ignorant ramblings!

[lfm]

#1. It's was very common that the "stereo" of synths are just 180 degree phase difference. So doing it mono and pan and provide your own FX was no loss.

If having much FX from the synth it might be a bit different. But how our brain is processing phase differences is astonishing, so it might not be much more than phase differences that can be provided by a post processing if taking one side.

From samples recorded in stereo it's different of course depending how microphones are placed. If a couple very close, and also ambient and then mixed you would loose information taking one side.

The loss you feel taking one side is a lot of ambience and direction is my guess. You loose a lot of phase and direction differences. But this is restored of placing good FX of your own. Immediately it looses feel, but not so sure it's a problem.

But not to get back to the same problem - having all stuff on the very extrem sides - FX used must be specially good quality not introducing the same thing all over, all input on extreme sides.

I'm thinking some kind of stereo widener where you can create your own ambient room for each part in the mix.

So when starting to mix the two sides to a mono you might need a phase shift on one side, not to get to much cancelling effects. So I guess just checking with and without phase shift and what sounds better is a good idea.

Long story short - I would just pan and balance volume and see how that works.

I have this problem very much with leslie effect on B4 organ. B4 II is better also having ordinary amp output, not to get the extreme width as soon as you use the leslie. It simply does not work for every mix.

I am about to experiment with this very thing, to get leslie but taking one side and see how it goes.

These guys have really thought this through letting you create you own stereo field for what you do:
http://www.wallanderinstruments.com/?mo ... ts&lang=en

Unfortunately no separate FX for this, but they have the knowledge.

#2. Panning of stereo track is just like balance control on your home stereo - you change volume of what's in each side.

Panning mono is putting same thing on two sides, with level differences.

#3. I think we all would benefit from tips of good wideners that let you create a certain stereo width without destroying original material.

There are multiple microphone setups for amp cabinets that do this. One would like the same thing but without distortion from cabinet as such.

So any tips are appreciated! I think it's worth a separate thread in Effects section really. Or bump an old thread if I find one.

Very intriguing subject. Thanks for this thread.

EDIT: Kind of embarrising, Waves S1 is part of the bundle I recently bought. Worth looking at. $60 as a separate plugin.
http://www.waves.com/Content.aspx?id=275

[Halma]

Hi guys,

silent reader for some time.

"But, in the books, there is a lot of advice from "big time" producers about sitting things in a mix using panning. For example, David Pensado states (paraphrasing), "I've noticed that some mixers will get stereo synth and FX tracks and instinctively pan them hard left and hard right. What they end up with is a train wrecks out on the ends of the stereo spectrum... So what I do is take a stereo synth track and just toss one aside because I don't need it. I'll create my own stereo by adding a delay or a chorus or pre-delay reverb to give it a stereo image. I'll pan the dry signal to 10:00 and pan the fx signal to 9:00"

I understand the technique is called "fattening"; using a delay <30ms to create the fatter sound. I also understand understand Pan Law pretty well (I thought). "

Actually it's called LCR mixing. And if your delay time on the opposite side will be < 30 ms then you will encounter the "Haas Effect" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haas_effect

Perhaps this article (and the following) from David Moulton will add something useful from my side to the discussion: http://www.moultonlabs.com/more/princip ... _image/P1/

This post also led to an interesting disussion with tons of infos in another forum: http://thewombforums.com/showthread.php?t=10454

And last but not least another good disussion about LCR mixing: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/rap-hip- ... ixing.html

Cheers,
Halma

[MyKill]

Thanks so much everyone. There is still a thin air of confusion about it, but mostly because I'm following all the links provided and its almost information overload! I had a few other questions to ask here, but I really need to read all the links to the LCR stuff and maybe that will explain what I'm not sure how to ask.

Again, thanks

[Syncretia]

I'm sorry but I think this thread has made something dead simple in to something complicated.

The basic principle to be remembered is that ears prefer something different coming out of each speaker. Which technique you use to achieve this is basically irrelevant apart from the fact that differing techniques produce slightly different results.

The technique mentioned of using a slight time delay of less than 30 milliseconds is called inter aural time difference (Mr Bill's words). It occurs because most sounds change over time and delaying one channel will mean that the part in the right ear will always be at a different point of the sound than the left ear.

The other way to alter the sound is to simply filter the left and the right differently. You can get crazy and split the sound up in to mid and sides and then affect them differently if you want.

Mr Bill explains a couple of great techniques here:

A lot of the sample-based virtual instruments I use are recorded and "played" back through the sampler in stereo. If you pan anything to either side, you lose some of the soul of the sample.

This could be true, or not true depending on the sample. Some samples will already have great width, others won't. Sometimes you'll find that someone has simply made a mono sample stereo by using the technique mentioned in the OP. It's really about taste and what works with the sample. There definitely are no hard and fast rules. I don't really see that there is a dilemma. You don't need to follow the technique in every single case.

[MyKill]

The bass guitar however moves from center to left because the bass signal that was being sent to the right can cross over to the left since the bass is being shared between the two channels.:

#2. Panning of stereo track is just like balance control on your home stereo - you change volume of what's in each side.

Panning mono is putting same thing on two sides, with level differences.

I'm sorry but I think this thread has made something dead simple in to something complicated.

Thanks to everyone for the links; I have learned a ton of the theory and some cool techniques.
But, the original question is still a mystery. I think what I'm asking may be more of a physical voltage to monitors thing.
Basically, I'm wondering what is happening to the signal physically when panning.

In Cubase, there is:

Hard Left, L99 - L01, Center, R01 - R99, Hard Right.

So when something is panned Center, it is in both speakers equally in the "phantom center"; Hard Left, signal only in the Left speaker; Hard Right, signal only in the right speaker.

Now, my confusion come in the way the volume is distributed when panning. Lets say the Bass is panned Center, then I pan it to L05; 5 steps from center towards the Left. Is the signal now subtracted equally from the right? As in it would only now appear in the Right speaker from L01 - L95?

Or is that over-thinking it? Is it just a incremental VOLUME shift in the Right speaker that is happening, not an actual placement shift?

Like when I pan the toms from my drummer. I pan from the drummers position (I hate audience position drums, personally). So Lets say I have Tom 1 = L65, Tom 2 = L24, Tom 3 = R15, Floor Tom = R30.

It's not as if Tom 1 is ONLY appearing at L65 and nowhere else. It is still in the right speaker at a lower volume, and that is the equation I'm after; how is the signal physically distributed to the monitors when making such panning moves.

Sorry if this is making anyone's brain hurt, but I'm an aspiring plug-in developer, so I'm trying to understand the mechanics of the stereo field.

Thanks again in advance

[bbaggins]

Yes, when you "pan left" the right side is reduced. How much each side is increased or decreased depends on the pan law you've selected. That's a DAW option that allows you to employ a nonlinear curve in order to compensate for overall volume differences as you pan.

The topic of panning is confused when you bring stereo tracks into the picture. True panning is only possible when routing mono tracks to a stereo bus. Stereo tracks are already "panned" hard left and hard right. To properly pan stereo tracks you need a plugin that allows you to bleed one channel into the other, treating each channel as a separate mono source.

[botkiller]

Because you're specifically asking about sampled instruments here, I'd have to ask the simple question; what sample based instruments are you using?

My advice; don't over-complicate. Close your eyes and listen to the mix and do your panning. Trust your ears. Science can only do half the job.

[MyKill]

Yes, when you "pan left" the right side is reduced. How much each side is increased or decreased depends on the pan law you've selected. That's a DAW option that allows you to employ a nonlinear curve in order to compensate for overall volume differences as you pan.

Right. That part of pan law I get. I use Equal Power. I guess then that the question should be what is the standard in terms of delivery method. Consumer and home theatre systems may have a lot of EQ options and bells and whistles, but I don't think I ever seen a pan law option.

Because you're specifically asking about sampled instruments here, I'd have to ask the simple question; what sample based instruments are you using?
My advice; don't over-complicate. Close your eyes and listen to the mix and do your panning. Trust your ears. Science can only do half the job.

What started it was the VSL Strings in Kontakt Factory Library and East West Goliath patches. But it was a two part question. "The main dilemma is maybe I just don't quite understand Pan law as much as I believed." So while looking for mixing advice first, my main concern is how it is physically distributed to monitors. "aspiring plug-in developer", so I'm having to learn the science of it. I never thought in my whole life I'd want to do anything involving math, now I had to learn trig.

[BertKoor]

I guess then that the question should be what is the standard in terms of delivery method. Consumer and home theatre systems may have a lot of EQ options and bells and whistles, but I don't think I ever seen a pan law option.

There are no options because there don't need to be any. It's no issue. The consumer gets a stereo file and that's it. Left goes to left and right goes to right, like it's supposed to be.
The only exception is when it's made mono by the consumer. Countless ways to do that, but who cares...

Do not over-think! You have set the pan law to equal power. That means: it's supposed to be the same loudness regardless of the panning position. So first set the level right, then you can play with panning at will.

[MyKill]

There are no options because there don't need to be any. It's no issue. The consumer gets a stereo file and that's it. Left goes to left and right goes to right, like it's supposed to be. The only exception is when it's made mono by the consumer. Countless ways to do that, but who cares...

Do not over-think! You have set the pan law to equal power. That means: it's supposed to be the same loudness regardless of the panning position. So first set the level right, then you can play with panning at will.

I know there is no pan law setting for consumers. That is the point. When you listen on consumer stereos, there is still the phantom center. Like how you pan the toms; on a home system, it still sounds panned across the spectrum. If I have my pan law set to +3, it will sound different than equal power.

What I'm asking is, is there a "standard" used for monitoring, like "you should usually set to Equal Power to most closely represent a home system". Is there a situation where you need to change your pan law settings to simulate a certain listening environment?

And again, I have to "over-think it" because I'm not asking about preferences of instruments in the stereo field and what "feels right"; I am going to have to code this stuff for a plug in in the not too distant future, so I'm after the more scientific answer for how the audio signal is physically distributed to the speakers.

P.S. You have any experience or opinion on LCR mixing? I was just introduced to the concept through links in this post.

[BertKoor]

The pan law only matter when the panning of a track is changed during playback (thus during it's mixing.) There's no 'good', your imagination is the limit.

Here's a nice topic on another forum with pictures 'n all:
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?p=434022