Finally tried the RP-Verb demo - it can actually be as smooth as my LXP bundle. amazing

[bmanic]

Here are some examples of EAReverb being processed. I never tweak the reverb, only the reverb send's pre and post reverb processing (before and after the reverb plugin).

I think this demonstrates nicely just how heavily we can influence reverbs by processing them properly.

Notice how I minimize the snare "ring" by completely eliminating any ringing snare frequencies prior to the reverb plugin by EQing the send. Also notice how much the de-esser does for this bright reverb that I went for. This kind of "washy" and bright reverb is quite common in rock/pop-rock etc. It's virtually impossible to get this kind of reverb to play nicely without de-essing the send before the reverb.

Addictive Drums Funk Loop, original dry signal

EAReverb added without any processing

EAReverb and the send heavily processed to force a bright reverb

Full reverb process + de-essing

There are quite a few things done to the reverb as you can hear. The main tone change is obviously heavy use of EQ both before and after the reverb. I've then saturated the reverb output with FabFilter Saturn. Finally I've done some mid/side compression forcing a separation of the two "channels" making the center a bit stronger, thus forcing the reverb to sit more centered in the song. Basically by compressing the side much harder with a moderate attack and slow release, the impact of the center is pronounced. I've also used the compressor to force the reverb output to have a rhythm, further enhancing the whole experience into a coherent drumgroove.

Hope this gives you guys some inspiration and ideas.

EDIT: I might have been a bit heavy-handed on the de-essing but I wanted to make a point.

Cheers!
bManic

[hibidy]

Why would that be mean? Because he's deceased? I don't have much respect for anyone that would take it that way, an honest opinion is an honest opinion.

MOST verbs sound "metallicky" to me to be honest. NONE are quite as smooth as I'd like.

Because most reverbs ARE metallic on some source material. It's a matter of choosing the correct reverb, then the correct processing of the SEND signal BEFORE the reverb and finally some processing after the reverb.

Simply slapping on a reverb is non-heard off.. at least I've never ever seen a serious mix where the reverb wasn't tweaked in some way (sometimes on the very reverb unit itself).

Cheers!
bManic

I'll hope that my paranoia and such isn't what I'm reading here.

My point was, in the computer era, I think that it's ok to refine and tweak things to as smooth as possible.

An impulse of a cathedral shouldn't sound metallic imo, but they most certainly do in some cases.

Anyways

[hibidy]

@examples: My ears are not designed to pick up on that stuff unless I crank it which I won't do.

For me, if you get TOO carried away with this it's not going to matter when mixing imho. I love the sound of my guitars drenched in lush verb, but it sounds like ass in a mix so I save that for my stoner jamming sessions

I don't do vocals so I admit in that context, I'm lost. However, with snares it's a very interesting thing, Sometimes a really heavy verb is just the trick, but usually a more subtle approach is best.

Rarely do I verb entire kits. Though I really like verbs more than "rooms" most of the time

Point? I test my verbs in real world settings. I look for things like presence, SMOOTHNESS, and overall controls. RP verb is kinda the exception for reasons I don't care to list (why I have it) Though on a one on one basis, I generally feel more "awe" inspired with RP verb.

[bmanic]

Ah yes, I see what you mean.

It's just that lately I've been dumbfounded by the apparent lack of processing people do on their reverbs and then complain that they need higher end stuff to get great results when it might not be the case at all.. so I just jump at every opportunity to point out that almost certainly, 99.999% of the music people listen to have some rather severely processed reverbs, or at the very least, quite heavily equalized sends or returns (or both).

Here is another creative example of reverb use. Combine two (or more!!) reverb units in series. This was also a common trick in the past and most likely still is.

Weird reed(ish) synth sound from Alchemy. The dry original source

Valhallaroom + EQ

D16 Toraverb + same EQ

ValhallaRoom feeding Toraverb + EQ

One can create awesome reverb spaces by combining several reverbs feeding each other.

Cheers!
bManic

[hibidy]

I really like those as examples. Instead of a short thing, it's a driving thing that can get you a much better example.

However, I like all of them. All of those have their place and considering the wide open arrangement, it lends well to any of those verbs.

Funny, I have my guitar strapped on and it's fun to jam to that in Cm (with verb, of course )

[xh3rv]

Hope this gives you guys some inspiration and ideas.

Yep, thanks! Think I'm putting EQ before verb a lot more often ...

Your snare example was a good lightbulb - I've been experimenting with pitch/grain/frequency shifters before verb for percussion send, they can knock the verb spectra up or down a bit. Ideally, letting the reverb and the orignal sound co-exist a little better, and just to tweak the tone of the verb. But I have a lot of problems getting 'ideal', the biggest thing probably is the ringing and singing bits - this helps a lot ...

[Liero]

Simply slapping on a reverb is non-heard off..

I think you mean "unheard of", are you stoned?

Nice tips!

[bmanic]

Simply slapping on a reverb is non-heard off..

I think you mean "unheard of", are you stoned?

Nice tips!

Unfortunately I am not!

.. it's just the typical combination of my mild dyslexia and crappy English skills. Thanks for the correction!

@xh3rv: Pitch shifting is an excellent idea indeed. It's used very nicely in the Eventide Harmonizer family of hardware. Either before or after the reverb output and it works great, exactly as you describe it. It's also a great way to thicken signals, especially when using very short reverb times.

Cheers!
bManic

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

Hope this gives you guys some inspiration and ideas.

would love a video demonstrating these techniques

[valhallasound]

One can create awesome reverb spaces by combining several reverbs feeding each other.

This is a cool technique, but it doesn't work well with all reverbs. In order to stand up well to cascading, it is best to use a reverb that has a more "open" topology. These reverbs tend to rely more on series diffusors, and less on output tap density. A few examples of this topology:

ValhallaShimmer
ValhallaÜberMod (with DIFF section enabled, & running in 2TapChorus mode)
Redline Reverb
D16 Toraverb
Reaktor Spacemaster/6Rev and associated variants
Eventide Blackhole (when released in plugin form)
Logic SilverVerb

These reverbs tend to run well when cascaded, and can be put before or after most other reverbs without adding serious coloration.

Reverbs like ValhallaRoom, the 2CAudio reverbs, and the various clones of the mid-80's Lexicon topology (all Lexicon plugins with the exception of the PCM Concert Hall, CSR, Breverb, LX480, and so on) tend to sound bad when cascaded with multiple instances. However, cascade these reverbs with one or more instances of the "diffusor" reverbs from the above list, and things can sound very nice.

Many of the Eno/Lanois experiments with cascading effects during the early 1980's used the Concert Hall algorithm from the Lexicon 224, which had a fairly open topology. It would be interesting to see if Eno and Lanois would use the same tricks with the later style Lexicon algorithms, such as the Rich Chamber and Rich Plate in the Lexicon 224XL. The later algorithms would provide a higher echo density, and could sound less colored when listened to by themselves, but could end up being MORE colored when cascaded with other reverbs.

Sean Costello

[Sequent]

Sean, thanks for that technical info. It helps explain why sometimes I have been successful with this technique and sometimes not! This also gives me some ideas to play with on the hardware side.

When you say "Eventide Blackhole (when released in plugin form)" does that mean that might not be the case with the hardware? Also, how would you classify the Alesis Wedge? Because I have an old one sitting around as well as an old SPX90 and this makes me think that perhaps they might be put into service for some interesting experiments. These days I tend to do things mainly itb, but I also have my old hardware that I sometimes still use as well as a setup for live stuff.

[Sequent]

@bmanic, thanks also for your input!

I pretty much ALWAYS have my reverbs eq'd coming OUT of the reverb, but I need to think more about eq'ing going IN to the reverb. And I haven't thought about using a de-esser because I've always associated that particular effect with vocals.

[valhallasound]

Sean, thanks for that technical info. It helps explain why sometimes I have been successful with this technique and sometimes not! This also gives me some ideas to play with on the hardware side.

I should have clarified that all of these techniques work with hardware as well. My guess is that the techniques being discussed (cascading reverbs and other effects, putting EQ, compressors & de-essers on reverb sends, and so on) are more common in the hardware world than in software.

When you say "Eventide Blackhole (when released in plugin form)" does that mean that might not be the case with the hardware?

The same techniques would work with hardware. I was trying to point out that there is no Eventide Blackhole plugin out yet, but it is on its way.

I don't know if the Eventide Space Blackhole algorithm sums its inputs to mono, or is true stereo. My guess is that Eventide used both techniques in various Blackhole algorithms - the H8000 sums the inputs to mono, but from reading the manual, it looks like the Eclipse uses cascaded stereo diffusors for its Black Hole variant.

Also, how would you classify the Alesis Wedge? Because I have an old one sitting around as well as an old SPX90 and this makes me think that perhaps they might be put into service for some interesting experiments. These days I tend to do things mainly itb, but I also have my old hardware that I sometimes still use as well as a setup for live stuff.

I've never heard the Wedge. I have several Alesis reverbs here (Midiverb II, Midiverb IV, Quadraverb), and they have a BUNCH of different algorithms. The general Alesis topology tends to be less "open" than Shimmer/Blackhole/Redline/Toraverb, but more open than the more recent Lexicon reverbs. This doesn't mean that the Alesis algorithms sound better or less metallic, just that they tend to rely more on diffusion within the loops, and less on multiple parallel loops, or large number of input/output points within a single loop.

Sean Costello

[Sequent]

I think the Wedge is basically a repackaged Midiverb IV - in a desktop (as opposed to rack) configuration.

On Blackhole... I know that the plugin is not yet out. I don't have the hardware either.

[bmanic]

One can create awesome reverb spaces by combining several reverbs feeding each other.

This is a cool technique, but it doesn't work well with all reverbs. In order to stand up well to cascading, it is best to use a reverb that has a more "open" topology.

It's highly dependant on the order and length as well. For instance you can use a mono instance (force to mono in DAW or with a plugin) of Valhalla Room, then run that through a very short ambience/room type reverb (or impulse), thus giving the originally mono signal some room width, completely changing the stereo image in an interesting way.

There are so many ways of combining stuff. It doesn't always have to be long into long or strange into strange.

Cheers!
bManic