Choices for experimental music setup

[rpm]

Looking at the meeblip, sound great. Would be interested in what other devices there are that are similar (and affordable), or computer options. Also, very interested in albums that are recorded with a minimal setup like we discussed (like meeblip + some effects + tape deck). I'm reading a book on electronic music but I'm still in the 1940s, no meeblip

[Donner]

I use energyXT and I find it excellent: It is fast, unbloated, intuitive (at least to me) and modular.
There are some that hate the recent version because there is a older one that they consider much better. I don't know the old version, so I can't say.

Just demo it and make up your mind.

[whyterabbyt]

I'm getting bored of a traditional DAW and track-by-track recording of pop/rock songs and switching to more experimental music.

Could you be clearer as to whether you mean a chnage in style or a change in method, or both. It'd help if you explained more about what you mean by 'experimental music', as, to me, its actually an approach rather than it is a genre of its own. Are you eschewing your 'pop/rock' entirely, or are you wanting to redefine your approach to it?

The choices are bewildering so I'd appreciate some recommendations about an affordable setup for making experimental music.

Flip answer?

1) Experiment
2) Goto 1

Less flip answer: any setup is suitable for experimental music. I often use a traditional DAW and track-by-track recording. Ive also done the whole thing 'live' in one take from a looper hardware box and a Kaoss pad. Some peopel work with a text editor and do it all via CSound, and some build everything via a modular synth patch, hit the record button and let it run...

That's because experimental isnt a style; its a method, or perhaps you could call it a philosophy... develop a method, and wring your own set of possibilities out of it. Its kind of hard to provide a gearlist for that, especially without more information.

In terms of software, anythign wouuld do. Dont throw out your existing tools without finding out if its worth applying them differently.

My most important vision right now is to be able to record phrases (possibly with the help of footswitches so I can also record guitar), be able to put them to use immediately and apply effects on the fly.

By immediately do you mean 'without stopping'? You could still do that within a linear DAW, using a looper plugin. Or use a hardware device. There are lots of ways of approaching it. Most DAWs support plugin control from MIDI hardware...
For a footpedal controller, the Behringer FCB1010 is cheap. Or make one yourself from a USB keyboard.

I'm a bit weary of using the mouse so I need to be able to do some of this with actual buttons, pads, knobs, etc.
What comes to mind is Ableton Live (a bit expensive) and MIDI controllers (AKAI APC40, Novation Launchpad, Behringer BCR2000) but perhaps there are some other options.

Live is a great option, but none of that hardware is foot-controllable, so you've still got that to contend with.

I have a vague idea that Korg Electribe (for making some beats on the fly) might be useful.
Or is an iPad sufficient for this (but I'm anti-Apple, pro-Linux, and forced to use Windows cause Linux is still difficult to set up for audio).

In conjunction with your looping/ DAW setup, or as an alternative?

Or maybe a modular environment (??)... There used to be EnergyXT but I didn't see much excitement in the forum just now (is it dead?).

Live is a fairly modular environment, especially if you throw in MAX/MSP. Bidule, Audiomulch and Usine are all good alternatives.

Or maybe I should learn a programming environment (Puredata, SuperCollider, CSound, Processing, etc.).

Yikes. Not because any of them are bad choices, but from saying 'my priority is X' you're about as far away from that as you can get in terms of immediacy.

I'm very confused and would love to hear opinions. Many thanks.

To be honest, Im very confused too. Any or all of these would be taking you in different directions, and some of them would be pretty deep to get into, which might be a hindrance if you're not sure what you're actually trying to achieve.

I think you should start from what you want to achieve, rather than what gear to use. You say live guitar looping, you say beats, and talk about MIDI controllers but then you also say 'immediate' and 'CSound' a couple of sentences apart. Are you just trying to cover your bases, or do you have a direction in mind? How much time do you want to spend building or preparing tools?

If you wanted to encompass all those approaches you've mentioned, you could do worse than pick up Live, Max4Live, and the CSound~ object, and a Launchpad or APC. Its not cheap, but it'll work, and it probably covers all the areas you mentioned, if you put some work in. I dont know that it would solve the core problem though, which isnt, IMO, gear choice...

However, not to be churlish, here's a few ways you could cover those same sort of bases:

1) A hardware looper or phrase sampler, a controller keyboard, DDMF metaplugin, and your existing host
2) Bidule or Usine, Reaktor and an iPad running Lemur or TouchOSC.
3) Your existing host, Geist, the Mobius or Augustus Loop plugins, and a controller-encrusted keyboard like the Novation Impulse.
4) A couple of arduinos, PureData, a soldering iron, an account with SparkFun and Mouser, and a box of cheap second-hand toy keyboards and guitar pedals.

[rpm]

Thanks! I'll have to think hard to answer in detail, but once again, I'm not looking to create any particular genre of music. Experimental is just a short-cut label. I want to experiment, and I tried to describe what my tentative vision. These answers would partially determine my direction. I'm very well aware that there is no set of tools required or necessary for experimental music properly defined.

All of this also has very little to do with my traditional pop/rock approach (which probably I will keep on doing; but I want to break free from that world via this experimenting).

I'm aware that being impatient and Csound do not go together, but I have extra patience for computer stuff, so if I were to get raves about that, I would be influenced to go that direction.

If I had a clearer vision, I would be able to describe it, but I don't. But the answers to my post are extremely helpful, and I'm getting exactly what I want: Pointers into this other world of "experimental" music, with which I'm not as familiar.

I will research all the things you mentioned in your reply. I'm very happy for the material and food for thought you are providing. Cheers!

[rpm]

Double post, sorry, don't know how to delete so editing.

[clementshawes]

Is it a new instrument you'd like to play or a particular sound? An approach maybe or an attempt to fuse some of your preferred genre's of music/sound.

The most productive thing I've EVER done is spend time away from the DAW and focus on using the kit that I have without using 'the screen'.

You say rock is one of your preferred sounds: Johnny Greenwood from Radiohead is an excellent advertisement for Max/MSP but I dare say someone in the know could achieve similar sounds with Reaktor or, indeed, some other 'environment'.

I can't speak for CSound as I don't know it very well but a lot of people I know who do have now migrated to Max/MSP and/or Max4Live.

In the past, when I felt lacking in inspiration or direction, I'd either try a new DAW (demo or a 'lite' version) or step-away and 'play' with something else - vinyl DJ'ing, guitar, drums or something entirely different.

The problem with experimenting is having some idea where you'd like it to go - it doesn't mean you have to stick to that direction in any rigid sense but one wouldn't generally walk into a restaurant and say "I'm hungry, get me food!".

Whether any of what I said helps, or even makes sense - I wish you the best of luck

[Rangtangtang]

However, not to be churlish, :
4) A couple of arduinos, PureData, a soldering iron, an account with SparkFun and Mouser, and a box of cheap second-hand toy keyboards and guitar pedals.

yes be different

[stimresp]

I would start with a simple modular environment (I still use energyXT1.4), spend some time exploring weird freebie synths and fx and loop them.

GLoop is excellent - never left beta but has never given me a problem. Using a simple switcher I can switch between 4 independent loopers, all under MIDI control.

You might also look at Mobius - however it depends on how deep you want to go. It will take time to find something you are comfortable with.

Add a hardware controller for hands-on, and maybe sprinkle some recorders throughout the chain to sample and re-sample.

If you have hardware then I've found FLStudio to be a great experimental playground - particularly due to the way Edison is integrated. Sample hardware and VST straight-in, edit and drop onto the playlist. It's ridiculously easy. You can host xt in FLstudio too.

Probably the hardest thing about experimental music is to define the point at which you stop experimenting and actually commit to audio. It's too easy to get all OCD at the expense of productivity.

[rpm]

Wow, even more great suggestions, thanks! Keep'em coming!

Yes, the idea of getting away from the DAW/computer resonates in me. I think I need that, that's why I like the idea of meeblip + a tape recorder or some minimal setup like that (suggested by one replier).

I'm getting a sense that I'll first create a minimalistic hardware setup (like above), so I can relax, play, explore, experiment, and learn for a while. Then, I will come back to PC and take up one of these options recommended by you folks (Max/MSP, Live, Usine, AudioMulch, etc.).

I definitely have OCD, so I'm actually thinking about pulling the internet cable off of my PC and just playing around with synths in my traditional DAW for a while.

Freebie synths/effects is a great recommendation, I have many of them and they are the only element in my setup right now that inspire experimentation.

[rpm]

I downloaded a lot of the stuff that was mentioned. Most telling is whether I have fun immediately, and I had fun with Usine, because I could manipulate stuff immediateiy and get instant results. Audiomulch looked a bit more complicated, but the GUI looks pretty.

Unfortunately, I was unable to download Bidule (seems a demo is no longer available).

I can see that making a bit of investment into learning new environment, probably Usine or Audiomulch, would be the best right now. I'm going to try to compare these in terms of stability, support, documentation, and price, and probably dive into one of them. If that goes well, I'll probably get rid of my M-Audio KeyRig 49 and get a better MIDI controller.

Ableton is too expensive for me right now, but maybe later.

And I think I will document my journey in a blog. Will drop it into this forum when I get there. Thanks to everyone again, it has been a huge help.

[clementshawes]

If you are considering a midi controller then - in lit of the mention of Ableton Live - you get a Lite version of Live with range of MIDI controllers; personally, I am big-fan of Live and almost entirely down to just how flexible it can be with a multitude of controllers and devices.

Of particular notice, IMO, are Akai's APC 20 & 40 devices and Novations Launchpad, Nocturn and SL keyboard ranges.
Also, the NativeKontrol device scripts add a whole new dimension to an already great system - if that's your thing.

Anyway, the point of my rant was that, if you're seeking a MIDI controller at some point, it might be worth looking to see if Live Lite comes with. It is slightly crippled but does give you a fantastic opportunity to play with Live. There's also a 30-day demo from the Ableton suite.

Anyways, I'll be interested in following your blog if and when it happens

All the best with your choices

[nay-seven]

yes, the blog is a good idea !
An easiest way than forum search for newbies looking for informations/experiences .

[rpm]

One quick question if anyone cares: I'm not sure about choice of environment (Usine, AudioMulch, Ableton, etc.) but I know I definitely have to get some MIDI controllers. I know that AKAI APC40 is designed with Ableton Live in mind, and then there are some smaller more affordable controllers (e.g., Korg nanopad).

I've never tried to map any controller onto any function in the DAW, I know fairly little about MIDI; my experience is limited to recording MIDI signal with a keyboard and editing those in the computer.

So, I'm a little scared of the mapping. I've heard something called automap; does this mean "Blah" controller will automatically map onto the functions of "Blah" DAW (which you can customize manually later on)?

And, would the choice of MIDI controller make much of a difference? That is, is there any controller that is specifically more advantageous for users of Usine for instance? Or to put it another way, if I get an APC40 but decide against Ableton, would I still be able to use it nicely with Usine or Audiomulch?

And with all these concerns what would be a good beginner controller?

All these explorations (questions, and tentative answers, with tried alternatives and untried suggestion) will be documented in a beginner's experimental music blog that I hope will open the way for people in a similar situation. cheers!

[whyterabbyt]

One quick question if anyone cares: I'm not sure about choice of environment (Usine, AudioMulch, Ableton, etc.) but I know I definitely have to get some MIDI controllers. I know that AKAI APC40 is designed with Ableton Live in mind, and then there are some smaller more affordable controllers (e.g., Korg nanopad).

I've never tried to map any controller onto any function in the DAW, I know fairly little about MIDI; my experience is limited to recording MIDI signal with a keyboard and editing those in the computer.

So, I'm a little scared of the mapping. I've heard something called automap; does this mean "Blah" controller will automatically map onto the functions of "Blah" DAW (which you can customize manually later on)?

Automap is like a wrapper around your plugins, storing your own custom controller mappings for the wrapped version of each plugin. It sits between your plugin and the DAW, so it should be portable between DAWs.

However a given DAW might already have its own system for controller mapping.

And, would the choice of MIDI controller make much of a difference? That is, is there any controller that is specifically more advantageous for users of Usine for instance? Or to put it another way, if I get an APC40 but decide against Ableton, would I still be able to use it nicely with Usine or Audiomulch?

Most controllers are fairly generic and work over MIDI. Those designed to control the DAW (rather than plugins within a DAW) often use the HUI or Mackie protocol, but provide a 'generic' MIDI output as well. Almost everything else except the boutique stuff will probably output MIDI CCs or Notes, and provide an editor to customise that.
The boutique stuff may be more likely to use OSC and an OSC-MIDI bridge. Some DAWs now support OSC too.

And with all these concerns what would be a good beginner controller?

The Novation Launchpad seems to be the best-supported 'grid' controller.
I'd lean towards suggesting a second-hand ReMote for keys, knobs, buttons, and an XY grid.
If you want a shitload of knobs, the already-mentioned Behringer BCR also seems popular, and cheap.
If you're still after footpedal control, the Behringer FCB.
If you're after an MPC type drumpad there are things like the padKontrol.

Most of these things are MIDI over USB, and its straightfoward enough to use more than one.

[rpm]

Thanks for the fantastic and fast reply. I care less about DAW control thru MIDI: I'd mostly just need the stop-start (so I could capture phrases without having to use the mouse). I'm more interested in VSTi control to manipulate sounds on the fly. I will research the stuff you mentioned, this forum has been amazing.