KVR Audio

FrankT · Post by **FrankT** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:41 am

musicworld wrote:
afreshcupofjoe
And to the OP, if you want my vote on the most authentic sounding sample set for solo work, definitely give these a look:
http://www.imperfectsamples.com/

Thanks! for that link, I must say these are the most authentic pianos samples I've ever heard. Apart from the Fazioli and the Hohner Baby Grand, it was the Steinway Concert Grand samples that amazed me.

How did they get the pianos to have such a realistic response when their Sampled not Modelled ?

Sampling has come a long way! Deeply sampled libraries contain thousands and thousands of samples and have e.g. round robins on sustains and staccatos, which are recorded in multiple microphone positions and deliberately contain 'imperfect' noises. The concept of deep sampling aims to capture the very specifics of the unique instrument as well as the natural ambience it is recorded in, something modelling (still) struggles with.

Jelly · Post by **Jelly** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:39 am

I have a CP1, it is absolutely the current state of the art.

Played a CP300 for several hours last night in church (and do so regularly - used to own it!), I think you would get away with it just fine for solo piano recording - though both these have quite a distinctive 'Yamaha' sound (and CP1/5 beats 300/33 by a country mile).

Long time Pianoteq fan, but no longer own it as piano is the one instrument that I still think hardware beats software for. PTQ4 demo is superb - but still the key-to-sound connection ('feel') even after the new calibration wizard is not as good as hardware, at least using the CP1 keybed.

More than the sound, I think that it's this connection that brings the best performance out of the player.

musicworld · Post by **musicworld** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:16 am

OP here

Again thanks to all for your contributed opinions it's been a long an debated discussion. However the outcome of my choice is to go with a Sampled Library, that being Galaxy 2, Galaxy Vintage D and the amazing sound from Imperfect Samples.

I think going with these library's after certain FXs have been applied in the creation process, Tone, Resonance, Articulation, Convolution Reverb etc, and of course a good Master, i would hope after post production the recorded Material should be at a standard acceptable for retail.

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:21 am

FrankT wrote:Sampling has come a long way! Deeply sampled libraries contain thousands and thousands of samples and have e.g. round robins on sustains and staccatos, which are recorded in multiple microphone positions and deliberately contain 'imperfect' noises. The concept of deep sampling aims to capture the very specifics of the unique instrument as well as the natural ambience it is recorded in, something modelling (still) struggles with.

But sampling still cannot cope with some important aspects of the piano as an instrument. Therefore it will always be flawed as a principle for recreating the true behavior of the piano.

tony tony chopper · Post by **tony tony chopper** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:30 am

finally, string resonance done right! you can silently press and hold a note, then hit an octave-lower note (and quickly release it) and hear how your original note resonates.

Is there a place when this can be heard?
What's the theory behind it?

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:43 am

The theory behind is in the piano mechanism. You can press a key on a real piano very slowly and because of the escapement in the mechanism the hammer won't actually hit the string, but it will lift the damper from the script. So when you play other keys while you hold this "silent key", sympathetic resonances occur.

No sampled library ever does this.

tony tony chopper · Post by **tony tony chopper** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:48 am

I see, it's this?

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:51 am

Precisely.

opus_diaboli · Post by **opus_diaboli** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:32 pm

EvilDragon wrote:Perhaps a realistic isolated played note. But not a realistic chord, not a realistic pedalling behavior, and definitely not realistic sympathetic resonance behavior in any way.

Maybe the physical behavior is mathematically correct, but it sounds a bit artificial anyway. Just like a piano synthesizer.

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:35 pm

And that's what Pianoteq is, a physical modeling synthesizer, and a very good one. In version 4 it is extremely realistic. I value behavior and response when playing piano the most, and sample libraries DO NOT CUT IT FOR ME. Nor should they for anyone else who is serious about their piano playing.

opus_diaboli · Post by **opus_diaboli** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:38 pm

EvilDragon wrote:The theory behind is in the piano mechanism. You can press a key on a real piano very slowly and because of the escapement in the mechanism the hammer won't actually hit the string, but it will lift the damper from the script. So when you play other keys while you hold this "silent key", sympathetic resonances occur.

No sampled library ever does this.

WRONG! The Galaxy Vintage D can do that. And repedalling. And a quite realistic sympathetic resonance. And, besides of that, the sound is simply superior to the Pianoteq plugin.

Edit: I haven't tried Pianoteq v4, though.

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:40 pm

Sorry, I disagree. Galaxy doesn't do key repetitions correctly at all (striking an already vibrating string producing phase cancellations), and I don't find Galaxy's sympathetic resonance that convincing. I had my share of play with the Galaxy, and just don't find its response as good as what Pianoeteq does.

opus_diaboli · Post by **opus_diaboli** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:48 pm

EvilDragon wrote:Sorry, I disagree. Galaxy doesn't do key repetitions correctly at all (striking an already vibrating string producing phase cancellations), and I don't find Galaxy's sympathetic resonance that convincing. I had my share of play with the Galaxy, and just don't find its response as good as what Pianoeteq does.

It doesn't do phase cancellation, but above you described this phenomenon:

You can press a key on a real piano very slowly and because of the escapement in the mechanism the hammer won't actually hit the string, but it will lift the damper from the script. So when you play other keys while you hold this "silent key", sympathetic resonances occur.

Again: Vintage D can do that.

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:52 pm

Yes, that makes Galaxy the only sample library with the silent key feature, then. If only its sympathetic resonance would be as beautiful as Pianoteqs, but oh, it is not.

ariston · Post by **ariston** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:55 pm

...and here we go with the "I played Pianoteq to a million people and they all identified it as being fake" examples.... it's that plastic/weird resonance/strange phasing/unrealistic attack-release what...ever...!

Thank the maker my ears are so poor that I'm easily fooled. Pianoteq all the way! Root root, jump jump, go team, and your samples can eat our rusted strings.

Sorry, I may need some coffee now. Carry on.

Best Plugin For Solo Piano Works ???