Best Plugin For Solo Piano Works ???

[pdxindy]

And that's really the problem I see here. People are trying to justify their opinions with a bunch of technical specs that don't really prove anything.

The problem here is that you are talking to yourself and not paying much attention to what a person is saying. I said it FEELS better as a player how Pianoteq responds like an instrument... Then you respond to me that a bunch of technical specs doesn't prove anything??

Sure Pianoteq has a hint of artificial-ness at times... but so does playing back a series of recordings by keypress. There is an audible artificialness to samples that experienced piano players hear and have articulated. Those are also not technical specs but experienced ears describing what they hear based on many years of piano playing.

You are focusing on a particular form of fake-ness that you hear in Pianoteq. But samples have their own forms of fake-ness. That those fake-nesses are there in both is fact. How you weight them and value them is subjective.

Personally, I hear the flaws in both and they are both good enough for me to enjoy the sonic output as music. And at that point, the playability is what matters to me. Playing Pianoteq is more like playing an instrument in its responsiveness and feel. That responsiveness translates into a sonic difference in the playing that I both hear and value.

[Tubeman]

The listener will not care if one sounds 2-3% more 'perfect' but they will care about how well you play.

I'd say there is a few types of listeners. The normal listener cares about how good the song is. A "hifist" cares about the sound/record quality. A musician/pianist might care about all of the above + how well it's played and how the piano sounds. So I don't think it's that black and white.

[opus_diaboli]

And this also goes back to the fact that Pianoteq was NOT designed to be programmed. It's designed to be played, [...]

Yes, but sometimes you need a plugin which is also designed to be listened to. I know pianists who did real recordings with sampled pianos (Ivory II), most likely due to financial reasons. Tell me one pro pianist who uses Pianoteq for solo piano recordings.

[opus_diaboli]

And BTW: programming piano parts almost never gives you satisfied results, no matter what kind of plugin you use. So this is a bit pointless.

[opus_diaboli]

Sure Pianoteq has a hint of artificial-ness at times... but so does playing back a series of recordings by keypress. There is an audible artificialness to samples that experienced piano players hear and have articulated. Those are also not technical specs but experienced ears describing what they hear based on many years of piano playing.

Correct. But there's an important difference: the average listener is not able to hear the subtle difference between a real piano and a sampled one. But even untrained ears are obviously able to hear the artificial sound of Pianoteq. As I already wrote (even twice ) some forum members of a pro pianist's forum recognized that. But it was an older version of PT. I recently checked out the latest version and I have to admit that it sounds better now, especially when you turn off compression and reverb. Playability is the best I've ever seen so far, it's fun to play with, but concerning sound it's still a bit inferior to sampled pianos. When you really need to "fool" the audience, e.g. for a solo album, you can't go with Pianoteq. I know that most pianists are using real pianos for recordings, but I'm also aware of situations where this was not possible.

[EvilDragon]

But even untrained ears are obviously able to hear the artificial sound of Pianoteq.

That is not universally true, and this has been exemplified by recent "psychological study" example by headquest, whose most recent track from Soundcould got trashed just because he EXPLICITLY MENTIONED he was using Pianoteq 4 on it. Most of his older tracks (which were PRAISED by the same people for their piano sound,!) have been using Pianoteq 3 but he didn't mention he was using Pianoteq explicitly nor implicitly. People "got fooled". Nobody noticed it was Pianoteq. Everybody listened to the song, nobody hated on Pianoteq DELIBERATELY.


Boom, headshot!

[lingyai]

But even untrained ears are obviously able to hear the artificial sound of Pianoteq.

That is not universally true, and this has been exemplified by recent "psychological study" example by headquest, whose most recent track from Soundcould got trashed just because he EXPLICITLY MENTIONED he was using Pianoteq 4 on it. Most of his older tracks (which were PRAISED by the same people for their piano sound,!) have been using Pianoteq 3 but he didn't mention he was using Pianoteq explicitly nor implicitly. People "got fooled". Nobody noticed it was Pianoteq. Everybody listened to the song, nobody hated on Pianoteq DELIBERATELY.


Boom, headshot!

Unless he has used the same version of Pianoteq, both when and when not mentioning what he was using, it is not a valid comparsion, and so doesn't neccessarily say anything. The difference in responses could have been due to the different instruments.

[EvilDragon]

Well if his sound was praised using an older version of the plugin, that alone says a lot. I'm 100% positive his tracks and sound would be praised even if he didn't mention Pianoteq 4 explicitly.


Moreover, this example is about how people can become hypocritical elitist assholes with the flick of a wrist.

[pdxindy]

And this also goes back to the fact that Pianoteq was NOT designed to be programmed. It's designed to be played, [...]

Yes, but sometimes you need a plugin which is also designed to be listened to.

I like listening to Pianoteq...

[koolkeys]

And this also goes back to the fact that Pianoteq was NOT designed to be programmed. It's designed to be played, [...]

Yes, but sometimes you need a plugin which is also designed to be listened to. I know pianists who did real recordings with sampled pianos (Ivory II), most likely due to financial reasons. Tell me one pro pianist who uses Pianoteq for solo piano recordings.

Most "pro" pianists won't use samples or plugins at all. They will use a real piano.

Of course you need a plugin you can listen to, and Pianoteq is designed to be listened to as with any other plugin. But plugin makers don't make plugins for the listener, they make plugins to benefit the player so he can produce better results.

I only mention this because some people who criticize Pianoteq have not played it, or can't play. And they wonder why it doesn't sound as good when they play their MIDI files through it. And the reason is because it's meant to be a dynamic and reactive instrument where the player interacts and adjusts based on the feel.

Brent

[koolkeys]

Sure Pianoteq has a hint of artificial-ness at times... but so does playing back a series of recordings by keypress. There is an audible artificialness to samples that experienced piano players hear and have articulated. Those are also not technical specs but experienced ears describing what they hear based on many years of piano playing.

Correct. But there's an important difference: the average listener is not able to hear the subtle difference between a real piano and a sampled one. But even untrained ears are obviously able to hear the artificial sound of Pianoteq. As I already wrote (even twice ) some forum members of a pro pianist's forum recognized that. But it was an older version of PT. I recently checked out the latest version and I have to admit that it sounds better now, especially when you turn off compression and reverb. Playability is the best I've ever seen so far, it's fun to play with, but concerning sound it's still a bit inferior to sampled pianos. When you really need to "fool" the audience, e.g. for a solo album, you can't go with Pianoteq. I know that most pianists are using real pianos for recordings, but I'm also aware of situations where this was not possible.

I would bet that in a blind test, where the term "Pianoteq" isn't used anywhere, you couldn't tell the difference. In fact, I would bet that the large majority of people will not notice a difference. Some may like one sound better than another, but you would probably not hear the word "artificial" very much.

It is completely in the mind most of the time. In fact, I just may do the blind test sometime using various libraries I have. Sounds like a good project.

Brent

[EvilDragon]

It's called "cognitive bias".

[Tubeman]

I would bet that in a blind test, where the term "Pianoteq" isn't used anywhere, you couldn't tell the difference. In fact, I would bet that the large majority of people will not notice a difference. Some may like one sound better than another, but you would probably not hear the word "artificial" very much.

It is completely in the mind most of the time. In fact, I just may do the blind test sometime using various libraries I have. Sounds like a good project.

Brent

Not a real test but here's a sample of five different pianos played at A0 max velocity, no reverb (all plugins). Which ones are real grands?

http://soundcloud.com/tubeman-1/piano-a0-test

[Sampleconstruct]

I would bet that in a blind test, where the term "Pianoteq" isn't used anywhere, you couldn't tell the difference. In fact, I would bet that the large majority of people will not notice a difference. Some may like one sound better than another, but you would probably not hear the word "artificial" very much.

It is completely in the mind most of the time. In fact, I just may do the blind test sometime using various libraries I have. Sounds like a good project.

Brent

Not a real test but here's a sample of five different pianos played at A0 max velocity, no reverb (all plugins). Which ones are real grands?

http://soundcloud.com/tubeman-1/piano-a0-test

The 3rd one doesn't sound pianolike at all....

[ariston]

Not a real test but here's a sample of five different pianos played at A0 max velocity, no reverb (all plugins). Any of them sounding funny?

Yeah, it's funny, they all sound like different pianos to me. I'm laughing my ass off right now, even though you can't hear it over the internetz.

I.... am..... losing..... patience with this crapola. PT is a physmod synth capable of doing pianos, marimbas, e-pianos, glockenspiels, etc. It can achieve very different piano timbres, from realistic to totally weird. It is the one piano plugin that plays like a real instrument. Taking one note out of one patch played at maximum velocity is complete and utter bullshit.

What, exactly, are you trying to prove? Do you play the piano? Have you tried PT with the guidance given in this thread? Have you even followed the line of argumentation in this thread? This awful example (and your earlier question) proves you're just baiting teh troll.

I really admire Brent's equanimity in dealing with this foolishness.