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HobbyCore · Post by **HobbyCore** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:48 am

KBSoundSmith · Post by **KBSoundSmith** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:48 am

Hmm, I think it may be this. The mode is likely Lydian, where C will be a Maj7 chord, F# (in place of F because of the mode) is F#m7 (b5).

So, the way to possibly read it is

Cmaj7 (tonic)*
F#m7 b5 (sub-dominant)*
Cmaj7 (tonic)
F#m7 b5 (sub-dominant) B7 (secondary dominant to E i.e. V7/iii)

*(kind of, sort of, see below)

Next, Emin7 (b5) to A7 is the same relationship as F#m7 (b5) to B7.

So in all likelihood:

Emin7 b5
A7
Emin7 b5
A7 ----------> D (or elsewhere if that chain of harmony continues)

It could possibly be a modulation, or just a different way of getting to the dominant of C. Hard to tell without more context (I don't know the tune). In a classical progression, I would probably go to D (for example) and then to G7 to C. However, in Lydian, G is GMaj7, not G7, so that undermines the Tonic to Dominant relationship. Keeping with the idea of this being modal, these chords can't truly be "functional", and are instead probably to be thought of as the result of voice-leading, where the "roots" of the chords imply tonal relationships.

Also, hopefully someone more experienced with jazz harmony than myself might pipe in and elaborate on how such progressions work in modal writing, or if it's something else entirely. I'm not quite as fluent in jazz progressions as I am in classical ones (although, coincidentally, I just got a couple of books to address that very problem the other day--fun reading, it will be nice to integrate into my writing).

Edit: lol, I didn't even consider thinking of F#min7 b5 as a borrowed chord from E, that simplifies things. Way to over-think it

Ogg Vorbis · Post by **Ogg Vorbis** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:48 am

HobbyCore wrote:So, I've been sequencing jazz standards to open my ears a bit and get out of a rut I've been in.

I've hit upon a song called "Let's Get Lost" in my real book V2 and I'm really a loss for a chord function.

The first 8 bars are:

| Cmaj7 | F#m7 b5 | Cmaj7 | F#m7 b5 B7 |
| Emin7 5b | A7 | Emin7 5b | A 7 |

Key Sig is C.

So what is the function of that half diminished F# there?

Bars 3 and 4 appear to be a 2 5 1 cadence in the new temporary key of em (iii). But the cadence is an 'elided' one since it does the old fake out and instead of landing on the i in the new key of e minor, it lands but it becomes the 2 chord in the EVEN NEWER key of D minor. It's the old "the landing is the new jumping off point" trick.

It does a 2 to a 5 in this new key of D minor but my guess is that it never really firmly lands on D minor either (going along with the title of the tune).

But back to your question. The harmony based on F# prepares the dominant in the new temporary key of E minor. So it's the "2" in the 2 5 1 in that new area.

All the above excludes what's going on in the melody. The fact that it goes to the F#m7 b5 once and goes back to Cmaj7 indicates that it may be a chromatic embellishment of something that's going on melodically. AND/OR it is preparing for the temporary modulation to e minor coming up.

My guess is that the first instance of F#minor is kind of, again, going along with the theme of "Let's Get Lost." Nothing like a root movement of a tritone to help the ear become lost.

And yes, the old songwriters REALLY DID do stuff like that. Check out the chords to George Gershwin's "But Not For Me." To serve the theme of the lyrics of love is everywhere, "but not for me", the chords are a string of one unfulfilled cadence after another.

tapper mike · Post by **tapper mike** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:49 am

Subs

F#m7 b5
F# A C E so you have an A minor 6th chord with an F# in the bass.
The B7 can be thought of as a modulation or a tritone subsitution for B minor.
Any relative minor chord can be subsituted with a dominant7. Actually there are instances where you can make any minor7 a dominant7 Joe Pass does this all the time.

The second row.
Emin7 5b can be thought of as "rootless (I hate that term) C9 chord again spell it out E - G - Bb - D now add a C to the root and what do you get? CEGBD A C79 chord. And finally we have the A7 which goes back to the sub rule for minor 7th chords being converted to dominant 7's

Re modulations. In a standard jazz resolution the tonality will shift up a key and then return back down. So for your ii - V7 in the key of C it goes up to Em - A7 (modulated to D) Dm7 - G7 (back to C)

Don't take my word for it, Take Joe's

Second time I've linked to that vid today.

tapper mike · Post by **tapper mike** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:48 am

In the case of F#m7 b5 as a subdominant that wouldn't make as much sense.
The subdominant of C is F.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subdominant
Its hard to justify a b2nd. Much easier to justify a b9

The flat 5 subsitution rule states that the 3rd and the b7 or dominant must be used in a different chord.
The dominant of C is G7 which means you'd have to use the B and the F natural.

When the Chord is a C Major7 you have a major not a dominant 7 you'd have to modulate down to F natural before you could get that C dominant 7 to be valid. Even then C dominant7 subsitution must include both the 3rd and the 7th E is the third and Bb is the 7th.
F#m7 b5 doesn't contain a Bb it's spelled F# A C E

KBSoundSmith · Post by **KBSoundSmith** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:59 am

Yeah, I know that wouldn't make sense, which is why I "* starred" it in my post, to bring attention to a possible modal interpretation (in this case, C Lydian); however, since the F# clearly can't work in that way, I later explained that it couldn't be thought of as "functional" harmony, in which case the labels tonic/sub-dominant/dominant don't apply (and of course, later noting that the piece doesn't appear to be modal at all when you interpret the F# chord as belonging to e-minor). I apologize if my post lacked clarity, it's past midnight where I am and I've had my sister's newborn screaming in my ear for the last hour. Love kids 'Round Midnight

tapper mike · Post by **tapper mike** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:06 am

someone called simon · Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:55 am

just think of it as a D7 in disguise... it's a fancy, sophisticated version of C D7 G (G7 probably, to bring it back to the dominant).
I play heaps of western swing, so there are heaps of turnarounds that go 3/6/2/5/1 (or E/A/D/G/C in your key of C). This takes it one or 2 stages farther back through the cycle of 5ths. Even if it doesn't complete that cycle it's still sonically hinting at it. The em7b5 to A, if it resolved to Dm, is functionally equivalent to C7, A7, Dm, in a more folky context.
The F# chord leads to B, leads to E, Leads to A, leads to D, leads to G, back home to C. Its actually not that uncommon a thing.
another way of thinking of that chord is an Fmaj7, only you've moved the F to F#. So you can see the other 3 notes of the chord are totally in key (C, A and E), and could resolve in a number of ways. Imagine a progression of Fmaj7 to F#m7b5 to C over G to G7 to C. Nothing weird there, just a bass note progression. ... Well your example is just leading off around another garden path, that could eventually lead back to the front door, or at the composer's whim, end up in a different house entirely.... its a bit more sophisticated is all...

tapper mike · Post by **tapper mike** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:36 am

Hi, That's a Mingus Briar patch.

Mingus used to right subsitutions for other subsitutions. Everone else would subsitute only once.

There is no D7 in the key of C. There is a Dm7. Yes you can subsitute a Dominant7 for a minor7 but that is where the sub would end naturally. What you are talking about is first subbing a dominant7 for a minor 7 then cutting off the root and adding a ninth. That is a twice sub. And twice subs are an easy way to get lost and not come back.

HobbyCore · Post by **HobbyCore** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:15 pm

Very helpful guys.

I'll post a small image of the A section later so you guys can have a better idea of the structure.

experimental.crow · Post by **experimental.crow** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:54 pm

chet ...

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:22 am

Ogg Vorbis wrote:
HobbyCore wrote:So, I've been sequencing jazz standards to open my ears a bit and get out of a rut I've been in.

I've hit upon a song called "Let's Get Lost" in my real book V2 and I'm really a loss for a chord function.

The first 8 bars are:

| Cmaj7 | F#m7 b5 | Cmaj7 | F#m7 b5 B7 |
| Emin7 5b | A7 | Emin7 5b | A 7 |

Key Sig is C.

So what is the function of that half diminished F# there?
Bars 3 and 4 appear to be a 2 5 1 cadence in the new temporary key of em (iii). But the cadence is an 'elided' one since it does the old fake out and instead of landing on the i in the new key of e minor, it lands but it becomes the 2 chord in the EVEN NEWER key of D minor. It's the old "the landing is the new jumping off point" trick.

It does a 2 to a 5 in this new key of D minor but my guess is that it never really firmly lands on D minor either (going along with the title of the tune).

But back to your question. The harmony based on F# prepares the dominant in the new temporary key of E minor. So it's the "2" in the 2 5 1 in that new area.

All the above excludes what's going on in the melody.

the melody does Si --- La |Do; B --- A |C. lands on C for the F#m7b5. then you have the normal function to E minor. The change is a lydian influenced move, which was tres hip at the time. it doesn't have to be justified by classical reasoning, it can do that just for the hell of it. But then it's useful to get to E minor. Your analysis makes perfect sense as far as it goes

if you have to have an excuse, foreshadows ii of E.

it helps to hear it:

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:29 am

it is headed to D.
the melody sequences down, does La --- Sol |Si
& sequences down again Sol --- Fa |La
over ii - V of D

but just like Ogg said, D- is ii of C. Not unusual but for the hip tritone-rooted chord as if out of nowhere.

so it is ii V of E, ii V of D, ii V of C, while the melody is a sequence accordingly. the melody is the best clue.
a good idea as far as trying to understand what happens, hear the tune to analyze a tune.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:24 am

that was a tune for a film, Happy Go Lucky, Jimmy McHugh but it's a jazz tune.

[an arrival->] i = the new ii is typical, modulating a tone down by this device, and another tone down...
When you got the flat five substitution it gives you chromaticism descending.

so you establish a start up a few tones up as this does and sequence back down to your 'real' goal.
a clever excuse to go right to 'flat five' here, which was hip to do on purpose by this time.

(the lead sheet by McHugh has it in D and the second chord reads Abm7b5.

http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mt ... =MN0060201)

Let's get lost...