Any Tone 2 Saurus users?

[dathyr1]

My one sentance should be.

bug requests. not but requests.

sorry about that,

Dave

[LeVzi]

Hi Dave,

Just sent you a pm here

[Ingonator]

Its £139 to me, which is $225

My bad though, Saurus is $142 not $119 (£88 )

at the shop they write either 99 Euros or 119$, same if you proceed to Share-it. The price in GBP is 88,30.


Ingo

[zvenx]

the 142 may include VAT?
yes? no?
rsp

[LeVzi]

Yeah tax inclusive.

[Bastiaan from Tone2.com]

Question for anyone using the Saurus. I am using the demo at this time.
I sent in two requests to Tone2, but no responces on this topic.
thanks for any info on this,

Dave

Hi Dave,

Not sure what happened but I've actually sent three replies to you (one on the 22nd and two on the 29th of April), they didn't bounce so I reckon they're either in your spam box or something else went wrong.

I'll PM you my last reply. In short the answer was that the sustain pedal problem is something we are looking into at the moment and will try to fix for the next release.

I hope that answers your question and sorry for the inconvenience of having to wait for the answer.

-Bastiaan-

[xh3rv]

i'm not aware of any other softsynths with 0 delay feedback filters apart from Diva and Saurus.

Sort of hate to mention this , the technical arguments can explain some sonic behaviors but not why the sound is worth using. Also, I may say something foolish here - not trying but this is pushing past my limits a bit in terms of mathematical knowledge.

Technically - I believe more or less 0-delay-feedback has a specific meaning for Diva. The feedback term as used in reference to Diva implies a bit (or maybe a good exponential number of bits...) more than it might seem, carries some specific weight that's not obvious.

In the end, everything in a digital filter has to boil down to a single output equation solvable in polynomial time, and for real-time performance that's a not-too-complicated polynomial.

Digital circuits have tended to be idealized relative to analog circuits constructed out of several components. These multiple components, especially in something like a synth filter which can be nicer when a bit nasty, can be abstracted somewhat down to two things that make computation difficult - non-linear behavior, and feedback. Non-linearity is by definition not polynomial, so approximations need to be used, although often this isn't too onerous. However, realistic feedback - at analog rates, essentially instantaneous - on top of this explodes complexity in such a way that for plausibly fast computation the problem has to be transformed into a different branch of mathematics, differential equations.

This is a bit of a Faustian gambit; the transformed problem will be quite a bit trickier on the surface, but may ultimately become computationally more feasible as complexity blows up, especially with complex dynamics where small parameter changes can result in chaotic output changes.

I believe for Diva solutions for this new type of problem are in a sense constructing a digital circuit - something that can be calculated arithmetically in a reasonable amount of time - on a case-by-case basis that can be verified as correct a little later, peeking some samples ahead, thus giving an illusion of something like time travel I imagine the actual code is a bit streamlined relative to several steps in the conceptual outline, as well.

I'd love to hear more from Tone2 about what goes in Saurus; it doesn't matter at all as to whether or not something actually sounds *good* or not, but I think every once in a while it can actually help understanding some of the feel of a knob or a technique, which is also obviously huge for getting something to sing.

[zvenx]

I don't think :

Non-linearity is by definition not polynomial, so approximations need to be used, although often this isn't too onerous.

that part is correct....linearity is a polynomial of order up to 1...above 1 for instance x squared is a non linear system......

rsp

[xh3rv]

I don't think :

Non-linearity is by definition not polynomial, so approximations need to be used, although often this isn't too onerous.

that part is correct....linearity is a polynomial of order up to 1...above 1 for instance x squared is a non linear system......

Ahh, this is a bit nuanced - Linear here isn't on numeric basis, but I think it's valid to say on basis of number of operations required to compute on a microprocessor. Eg - a trig function isn't exactly computable but approximations up to desired accuracy are, and some logic can construct piece-wise compositions thereof, this sort of math

[e]. Of course you're right though XD ... in terms of filters linear means boring linear, as opposed to fun linear like matrices and orthonormals. I didn't figure that.

[hakey]

I thought the nonlinearity with filters was due to feedback behaviour.

Isn't it nonlinear differential equations that are involved in modelling feedback, rather than nonlinear algebraic equations (polynomial equations), or is it both?

[xh3rv]

I thought the nonlinearity with filters was due to feedback behaviour.

There's exceptionally tricky behavior with multiple components, each with nonlinear features, and with feedback from the output back into the original input, and calculated at 0-delay. This is a lot of conditions but meeting them leads to impressive results. Analytically the domain isn't simply the input signal anymore, or the 1-delay case of the input plus the previous output, but input plus something essentially functional. So mathematically the challenge is due to feedback behavior with nonlinear components, but there are less challenging / less computationally intensive ways of doing things where nonlinearity is not so integrated with feedback.

From the realization that the domain is more sophisticated than it used to be, theory around differential equations offers a lot of different ways to move forward, but no panacea. There are different classes of problems. I'm assuming Diva's filters (other than the MS20 or one revision of MS20, which were exceptionally plausible to solve symbolically due to low component count, I think Urs mentioned) are constructed to be the type that can be brute-forced with numeric methods - successive approximation schemes - but describing that in detail is beyond me.

[xamido]

I use it all the time now. I like it. The sound is not like diva, but it's a very efficient synth. Fun to program for sound that musically works. Not for hardcore sound designer though.

[GeorgeZ]

I use it all the time now. I like it. The sound is not like diva, but it's a very efficient synth. Fun to program for sound that musically works. Not for hardcore sound designer though.

I beg to differ

[xamido]

I use it all the time now. I like it. The sound is not like diva, but it's a very efficient synth. Fun to program for sound that musically works. Not for hardcore sound designer though.

I beg to differ

As in....?

By hardcore i'm comparing it with my synthmaster which is a beast.

[Gucky]

I like the Saurus synth.
Let speak the Saurus for itself I made a Song with Saurus as main synth.
Here it is:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 99#4909399