KVR Audio

zerocrossing · Post by **zerocrossing** » Mon May 07, 2012 9:34 pm

lfm wrote:
todd sweetland wrote:Get a VHT Special6Ultra and a Shure SM-57 mic and your done . $329 for the amp and $99 for the mic !
You have to add a little cost for soundproofing your studio/apartment!!!

Yeah, in the original post I explain why this set up wouldn't work for me in more ways than just being loud. I do a lot of looping and when you're looping the output of a mic'd cab you always end up with feedback issues. I mean, if it was just that simple I would be just checking out amps at my local shops.

fedexnman · Post by **fedexnman** » Mon May 07, 2012 9:47 pm

My ADHD , must of missed it . I have a roland cube30 , that sounds great mic'd . I prefer it to amp sims vst . Looping and feedback =

Good luck !!

zerocrossing · Post by **zerocrossing** » Tue May 08, 2012 1:13 am

Well I've been over and over every demo I could find and it's pointing to a hard truth. I don't think it'll be worth spending any money unless I go with the Kemper Profiling Amplifier. (shouldn't it be Kemper Amplifier Profiler?) It just sounds fantastic in every demo I've heard. Such a wide range of possibilities on that baby and it totally serves my needs.

I guess this blows my "budget" out of the water so I could either drop the whole thing, or re-visit my idea to do the guitar preamp/new computer thing for $2000. I think I'm currently leaning toward the Kemper and then waiting a few months to do the computer.

zerocrossing · Post by **zerocrossing** » Tue May 08, 2012 2:53 am

chokehold wrote: Also, a loudspeaker with a loud signal is moving quite a bit, so it's pushing and pulling quite some air. As most IRs are created closely mic'd, this movement of air will have an effect on the microphone, just like if you're talking/singing into one.
The more air you blow into the capsule, the more rumble you get on the record.

That's not totally describing sound from a speaker. An air molecule is only moving a very short distance if at all. The air doesn't get pushed and pulled any significant distance, it's more like the idea of those balls on strings where you swing one, they hit the stationary ones, and then the one on the end moves as if it's the one getting hit, except it's balls all the way from your speaker to your ear.

It's kinetic energy propagating though a medium. A pressure/vacuum wave. I'm sure there are turbulence and speaker deformation and what not that all contribute to how an amp/cab sound, but there's no air rushing by a mic. A voice or wind instrument is a very different thing and that's just because the air acts like a bow would on a string and that string is your vocal cord. The breath rushing out is a side effect of how the sound is made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound

But you are right in that a tube pre/tube power/cab/mic all have a really complex little relationship and it's pretty amazing that some sims do as well as they do. I would think that a modeled cab response would be a bit better than a pure impulse for the reasons you describe. I don't know if any convolution based cab somehow takes multiple amplitude sweeps and somehow blends between them to make a more accurate model based on a true dynamic signal.

wasi · Post by **wasi** » Tue May 08, 2012 6:46 am

zerocrossing wrote:Well I've been over and over every demo I could find and it's pointing to a hard truth. I don't think it'll be worth spending any money unless I go with the Kemper Profiling Amplifier. (shouldn't it be Kemper Amplifier Profiler?) It just sounds fantastic in every demo I've heard. Such a wide range of possibilities on that baby and it totally serves my needs.

I guess this blows my "budget" out of the water so I could either drop the whole thing, or re-visit my idea to do the guitar preamp/new computer thing for $2000. I think I'm currently leaning toward the Kemper and then waiting a few months to do the computer.

Seriously? You started out in this thread thinking you wanted more glowing glass, now you want more (and much more expensive) modelling...?

I know the symptom, but I'd stick with your initial feeling, i.e. you were missing the organic feel and sound of tubes. You can stick more - and more expensive - margarine on your bread but it still won't taste like butter. Only butter tastes like butter.

Hink is right. I forgot about the ADA MP1 in my list. There are always tons of those available for around $300 and there's a solid 'fanbase', adadepot for mods etc. I count ten on ebay right now.

Amplitube and S-Gear are good software. I don't think the slim margin of improvement you could get out of a Kemper would justify the price.

Rangtangtang · Post by **Rangtangtang** » Tue May 08, 2012 8:44 am

What about keyboard amps. Well Im getting one. Its a amplified 10 inch speaker box whith 3 channel input as well as CD input and reverb too. Has not tubes but I thought it might be usefull.

zerocrossing · Post by **zerocrossing** » Tue May 08, 2012 2:41 pm

wasi wrote:
zerocrossing wrote:Well I've been over and over every demo I could find and it's pointing to a hard truth. I don't think it'll be worth spending any money unless I go with the Kemper Profiling Amplifier. (shouldn't it be Kemper Amplifier Profiler?) It just sounds fantastic in every demo I've heard. Such a wide range of possibilities on that baby and it totally serves my needs.

I guess this blows my "budget" out of the water so I could either drop the whole thing, or re-visit my idea to do the guitar preamp/new computer thing for $2000. I think I'm currently leaning toward the Kemper and then waiting a few months to do the computer.
Seriously? You started out in this thread thinking you wanted more glowing glass, now you want more (and much more expensive) modelling...?

I know the symptom, but I'd stick with your initial feeling, i.e. you were missing the organic feel and sound of tubes. You can stick more - and more expensive - margarine on your bread but it still won't taste like butter. Only butter tastes like butter.

Hink is right. I forgot about the ADA MP1 in my list. There are always tons of those available for around $300 and there's a solid 'fanbase', adadepot for mods etc. I count ten on ebay right now.

Amplitube and S-Gear are good software. I don't think the slim margin of improvement you could get out of a Kemper would justify the price.

I know, you're probably right. I did spend a tremendous amount of time listening to demos and all the ones I seemed to really like where the ones from a mic'd cab or the Kemper. Of course, it was all via Youtube, which is a scourage of modern times. Don't get me wrong, I love a good kitten sleeping video, but showing off your nice music gear? &fmt=18 helps, I guess but I wish I had a nice quality demo.

Then I'd do informal a/b comparisons with what I current have. A Blackstar HT-5 Dual distortion pedal going into (my two current favorites) Amplitube and S-Gear. I started feeling a bit silly because I can get the software to sound really very good. As good as a real amp? Well, that's a debate for another thread, but very good.

I know the Kemper's just more expensive amp modeling, but from what I could tell it seemed to be better than a preamp direct into a cab sim/impulse. Is it better than pure software? Good question. I've not been able to compare it so I have no idea. Which points out to a big problem and that's all the things I'm considering aren't available for me to demo. Doesn't even seem like I could find a Tubemeister anywhere in the area. Thanks Guitar Center! You've homogenized everything.

So the alternative is buy on eBay and sell on eBay if I don't dig it. That's a huge PITA. So that's where I am in my thinking.

I guess the one other alternative is to buy a iso cab and put it in my garage. I hadn't really considered this, but it could really be the answer I'm looking for. Hink, how's that Jet City you bought?

wasi · Post by **wasi** » Tue May 08, 2012 5:19 pm

But even an iso cab only gives you a close miked 1x12 sound. That's not much of a hardware selection to work with, unless that's the sound you're after. If not, you spend your time trying to turn that 1x12 sound into a 4x12 sound or whatever. That's what made me drop the iso cab idea back then. OTOH you may find out it sounds exactly the way you want. But looking at the pile of gear in my study that didn't seem very likely.

Have you tried Recabinet? I don't particularly like most of the presets but with some cab mixing it's punchier and more vivid to my ears than other cab sims that come with amp sim suites. Both AT and Guitar Rig's cab sims are very good, but there's a 'tameness' to the sound, like a retouched photograph. Recabinet is more raw to my ears, really to the point where I have to say that I couldn't do better miking a real cab. I've played everything through it, from a mesa studio pre to a distortion pedal and they all sounded really good. The mesa actually sounded better than through my real rig.

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Tue May 08, 2012 6:13 pm

wasi wrote:But even an iso cab only gives you a close miked 1x12 sound. That's not much of a hardware selection to work with, unless that's the sound you're after. If not, you spend your time trying to turn that 1x12 sound into a 4x12 sound or whatever. That's what made me drop the iso cab idea back then. OTOH you may find out it sounds exactly the way you want. But looking at the pile of gear in my study that didn't seem very likely.

Have you tried Recabinet? I don't particularly like most of the presets but with some cab mixing it's punchier and more vivid to my ears than other cab sims that come with amp sim suites. Both AT and Guitar Rig's cab sims are very good, but there's a 'tameness' to the sound, like a retouched photograph. Recabinet is more raw to my ears, really to the point where I have to say that I couldn't do better miking a real cab. I've played everything through it, from a mesa studio pre to a distortion pedal and they all sounded really good. The mesa actually sounded better than through my real rig.

First let me answer ZCs question, the Jet City gets the job done but I still feel the need to use an attenuator so I can push the envelope a little more. The question of will it work for you is very subjective naturally but if you expect it to kill all the sound it wont, I still hear it but a TV at normal listening levels will mask it. On the other hand (I know an issue for you) is that I can crank it enough that it wont pick up outside noises when I am playing...but, I have picked up outside noise when not playing like during a pre-roll. I think I can improve on it building my own but only to a certain point.

Now to wasi, I'm sorry but with my experience I have found that line out recording is a nifty gimmick but not a reason to buy a tube amp. It's a great feature to have on an amp and for me the reasons are two fold. One using IRs with the signal can be quite good, but unless it's rigged like the Frenzel you do not get the distortion from the power tubes (which you can read me description on the first page of why the Frenzel is different. BTW for very cheap Weber sells a kit that does the same thing). Why have a tube power amp and not use it? So it's good when layering tracks and filling in spaces.

I really have fallen in love with single ended Class A, you do not get that from a pre-amp. That brings me to the second use a line out gives me, my single ended amp has a power amp in and I can run the line out of one amp into it for class A or other amps. Being able to completely mix up my power tube compliment is great, the jet City 50 watt via the line out into my Class A or even my Egnater Rebel 20 (which uses both 6v6 and EL84s) is very cool. The fact that one of mt Frenzels can use various power tubes and the fact I also use THD Yellow Jacket tube converters gives me countless variations with 5 amps and a Marshall pre-amp (still dont really like the marshall pre which is all tube)

While an iso cab may seem to have it's limits you leave out a very important part of the picture, re-amping. It's a closed space yes, you're not going to put a mic at the cone and one 4 feet away. But you are not limited to one speaker nor one mic when re-amping and as far as getting the sound of a mic further away can be accomplished with nearly any reverb these days after the fact (which imo is the time to use reverb, I monitor with fx but record dry). A line out is sure to be more limiting by nature than an iso cab.

I'm currently working on an article for Brent (koolkeys) and his site all about re-amping and the benefits it presents in this age. Needless to say there is plenty to write about and many ways to go but I for one will never again just record one source, I will always a direct line from guitar via a splitter.

BTW it would be very easy for me to make an adapter ring for my iso cab so that I could go down to any smaller sized speaker if I wanted say a 10" or 8". If you read on the first page you will my concept for an iso cab that I want to build and that includes being over sized height wise and using adjustable baffles, the same could be done width wise. In fact one of the iso booth companies make (or made) boxes you put you entire amp in, I can't find it right now and I have to go out.

zerocrossing · Post by **zerocrossing** » Tue May 08, 2012 6:33 pm

wasi wrote:But even an iso cab only gives you a close miked 1x12 sound. That's not much of a hardware selection to work with, unless that's the sound you're after. If not, you spend your time trying to turn that 1x12 sound into a 4x12 sound or whatever. That's what made me drop the iso cab idea back then. OTOH you may find out it sounds exactly the way you want. But looking at the pile of gear in my study that didn't seem very likely.

Have you tried Recabinet? I don't particularly like most of the presets but with some cab mixing it's punchier and more vivid to my ears than other cab sims that come with amp sim suites. Both AT and Guitar Rig's cab sims are very good, but there's a 'tameness' to the sound, like a retouched photograph. Recabinet is more raw to my ears, really to the point where I have to say that I couldn't do better miking a real cab. I've played everything through it, from a mesa studio pre to a distortion pedal and they all sounded really good. The mesa actually sounded better than through my real rig.

I'm going to try out some impulses tonight and see what's up. I do have Speakerphone but I mostly use it for oddball stuff. I thought Audioease's Cabinet was a bit bright sounding to me. I think my "ugly" sound is in the amp though, not the cab.

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Tue May 08, 2012 8:03 pm

ZC my offer always stands, if you want to send me something to run through one of my amps with settings of your choice please do not hesitate to ask

zerocrossing · Post by **zerocrossing** » Tue May 08, 2012 8:54 pm

I could go iso cab. I've been avoiding it but it may be the answer. I could easily put it in my garage which is next to my studio. It would be easy to drill a small hole to run cable into the garage if the volume is too much.

Maybe the deal is get the Tubemeister 18. I seem to have found enough demos of it that I like. It seems to be fairly full featured and the price is right. I can easily see if the Redbox out makes me happy and if not go for an iso cab. I was able to hear enough of the Randall Iso cab demos that sounded good.

On the other hand, I can't help but love the elegance of the Kemper. Might not be perfect but it would literally be plug and play.

zerocrossing · Post by **zerocrossing** » Tue May 08, 2012 9:08 pm

Hink wrote:ZC my offer always stands, if you want to send me something to run through one of my amps with settings of your choice please do not hesitate to ask

I appreciate it. I might just take you up on that, though (don't laugh!) what I do rarely even gets recorded. All this tomfoolery is about me screwing around in my studio filling RAM buffers of audio loops.

blueman · Post by **blueman** » Tue May 08, 2012 9:21 pm

zerocrossing wrote:what I do rarely even gets recorded. All this tomfoolery is about me screwing around in my studio filling RAM buffers of audio loops.

Don't worry, you're in good company

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Tue May 08, 2012 10:10 pm

blueman wrote:
zerocrossing wrote:what I do rarely even gets recorded. All this tomfoolery is about me screwing around in my studio filling RAM buffers of audio loops.
Don't worry, you're in good company

+ a billion, it's all good though. Some people are in it for the hope of fame and glory while some of us are just as happy as we can be doing what we love when we want and how we want

Guitar amp or...