Gain Staging Structure: Waste of time?

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Syncretia wrote:If I were to explain it a student for example, what would I tell them? Why shouldn't they just turn the master down?
Because you're never quite sure when the DAW will trip you up. You can cheerfully freeze and flatten in Live, for example, and it will use 32bit files. No clipping. But, if you forget you've gone beyond 0dBFS and render stems to 16 or 24bit, you are suddenly in Clip City. The trouble, by the time you've reached this point, you then have to work out how to scale things back without affecting a more or less completed mix. Keep the levels lower, you don't have to go back.

Similarly, recording into Aux channels on Logic and Pro Tools is generally at 24bit resolution, so may well clip even though the mix bus that provides the source is cheerfully running at 32bit. Logic seems to run channel inputs through the I/O code as recording is disabled (even on auxes fed by a bus) if you don't have an input selected.

This is why broad-brushed claims that "all DAWs use 32bit processing so everything's fine" don't really play out so well in the real world. They've largely used 32bit FP arithmetic because it runs fast on modern processors - but they've also made assumptions about how people use these tools, one of them being that people are treating 0dBFS as a limit and not deliberately going over it. So, they don't necessarily make 32bit processing available everywhere.

You also may have plug-ins that are programmed on the assumption that -18dBFS = 0dBu and so push anything above that into saturation. So, they won't clip as such, but things can get grainy real fast.

Running the channels so they are peaking at somewhere in the -12dBFS to -18dBFS range isn't going to hurt the audio ("oh noes, I'm wasting bits!!!!"). As it makes no overall difference to the sound assuming the monitoring levels are adjusted to compensate for the apparent reduction in impact and it's easier to remember to keep things quiet than to remember when a DAW will clip something, I can't see a good reason for running channels close to 0dB. If you want to deliberately saturate a channel, then just use a trim plugin there and then reduce the gain afterwards to fit the mix.

Those are my arguments. YMMV.

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If I were to explain it a student for example, what would I tell them? Why shouldn't they just turn the master down?
I know this is me battering workflow advantages again as opposed to 'proper' gain staging advantages if they exist, but one good reason is simply that turning the master down changes your monitoring volume. We all know that we tend to pick the loudest thing as being the best, which is why we have to be careful when A/B-ing compression and the like. Turning the entire mix down could throw your session off a bit, especially if you're doing it pretty much every time you turn up one of the elements of your mix. You can't really A/B a mix change if you're listening to B at a different volume.

P.S. I knew this thread wouldn't die just yet :hihi:

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cron wrote:You can't really A/B a mix change if you're listening to B at a different volume.
This is why I wonder why people worry about trying to push levels to 0dBFS and beyond: it suggests they're just falling into the louder=better trap. I've got into the habit of doing a level-matched A/B on everything. It's amazing how often 'instant mojo' turns out to be 'slightly grainy and unpleasant effect' after that process.

And here's one thing for the people worried about not using enough bits if they're not hitting 0dBFS all the time. Try knocking the gain down on all the channel by something stupid and then restoring it on a bus or master channel using, say, two Utility plugs in Live. If you knock it down by -70dB by turning both down all the way and then record into another you'll get practically nothing (because that captures a 24bit window of the incoming audio stream). But have two Utility plugs on the master and the resulting audio will be restored to normal levels with no changes. This isn't a big surprise as floating-point numbers provide as much footroom as headroom but it's not necessarily behaviour DAW users will expect.

Curiously, Liquid Delay's overdrive provides more or less the same results at normal levels and ultraquiet - the plug-in seems to automatically adjust its waveshaping to the incoming level. If you slap the Utility plugs and Liquid Delay into a group and deactivate the gain stages all at once, it sends a massive spike through the overdrive section (don't try this at home without a limiter on the master) but the plug-in recovers and processes the following audio as if nothing happened. However, the autogain seems to top out at around +24dBFS when the overdrive starts to behave less predictably, so it doesn't work for every possible level you throw at it.

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OMG, screw you guys. :hihi:
This threads got it all. The feisty young amateur upstart with wild ideas, the chummy old analog pro set in his ways, the mysterious and confident "ME" of few words, and a couple audio scientists with numbers. And no one agrees. Or acknowledges the real points.
The poor noobs who find this one...
metamorphosis wrote:Guys, for f**k sake.

If you want to test this for yourselves, take a volume plugin, say ggain, drop the volume by 18db, put it at the beginning of a 5 or 6-stage effects chain (with no dynamics plugs like limiters, expanders, gates or compressors), then put the same plugin with +18db at the end of the chain.
Select both plugs and try playing back while flicking bypass on/off on them both.
Do the same thing but with +18db at the head of the chain and -18db at the end.

If you can't hear a difference, then no amount of info in this thread will help you. End of story.
If we can't?
Should we hear something there?
Im pretty sure that we totally should not.

Its seriously like there is a conspiracy to not tell ITB float users that they can basically do whatever they want.
Thanks rifftrax, for making some points heard through the huffnpuff.

WTF is wrong with everyones gain faders!? :hihi:

And somehow now the argument against just using gain is that it messes up A/Bing? I dont even see how that logically makes sense. Your gain stage is first, it stays on, and you A/B with whatever youre doing downstream. What is the difference between that and not having the gain stage there?

Is this one of those threads where youre supposed to read every third word? :hihi:
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highkoo wrote:..G, ..guys.
..got. The .. amateur .. wild .. chummy .. pro .. his .. mysterious .. "ME" .. words, .. couple .. with. ..no. Or .. real ..
The .. who .. one...
metamorphosis wrote:..
.. can't?
..hear .?
Im .. that .. should..

Its .. there .. conspiracy ..tell ..B .. that .. basically .. they ..
. rifftrax, .. some .. through ..

.F .. with .. faders!? :hihi:

..now .. against .. gain .. it .. A/Bing? .. even ..that .. sense. .. stage .., it .., and .. with .. doing .... What .. difference .. and .. the .. there?

.. one .. threads .. supposed .. every ..? :hihi:
...you got me wondering
..what goes around comes around..

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highkoo wrote:OMG, screw you guys. :hihi:
...the chummy old analog pro set in his ways
Love it! Damn whippersnappers! :x

Hey, I'm not set in my ways, it's just a slight groove! :lol: Seriously, I've adapted to three different recording formats and up until a few years ago, delivering signal well above the noise floor and just below the distortion point was critical. And I'm sure the day will come when you don't have to think about gain structure at all, but it ain't today.

As Gamma mentioned, 32 bit float is great until you have to play in someone else's sandbox or vice versa. I routinely send out tracks for remixes and local voice talent, and receive audio from other studios too. Stems, acapella tracks, guest verses, etc., and 24 bit wav @ 44.1k for audio and 48k for video are standards to keep file sizes reasonable and ftp-able. Why create levels in your individual tracks that just have to be re-adjusted if it's going to 16 or 24 bit anyway? I'm not arguing that you can, I'm asking why you would.

If you're just doing your own stuff, do what works best for you. But here's the NARAS/AES suggested standards for archiving and sharing sessions:

http://www.aesnashville.org/PDFs/NARAS/ ... ull_v1.pdf

Too authoritative? :wink:

I get more burnt tracks from young producers and beat makers than I care to mention, and when I ask what they work in, about half the time it's FL. And another quarter in Reason(s!). If 32 bit float gain structure has 100db of headroom, why are these tracks and mixes so distorted, especially since it's mostly ITB synths and samples? When I do get split out tracks that combine into a big, punchy mix, there's a LOT of green on the meters.

KVR/eSoundz: Xenobt

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hhhmmm 32 FP may not really have much advantage over 24 PCM ?? esp. with in and out and back in the box setups ??

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usually i'm not talking with anybody about it,not that i don't want to but the whole discussion about headroom is a bit counter-productive.

if you're not in the position to keep a greater headroom,like for example releasing music only through the internet,you need to find a way to be competitive.
the meter is pretty much staying on top and there is a loudness war if you want it or not,kid's loving it.
now,the art is to avoid the unpleasant distortion,even though sometimes isp's can be fine but then the problem is how to create dynamic if a mix with isp's sounds good on one part and on the other lower part it doesn't.

otherwise,it is possible to mix "smashed" loud music transparent as well,without isp's.

sooner or later gain staging is an issue.

i forgot to mention i'm a musician,just in case...:D
(wrote it to remember myself next time i'm reading this thread)

well somehow this is a gordian knob,imo.

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fateamenabletochange wrote:hhhmmm 32 FP may not really have much advantage over 24 PCM ?? esp. with in and out and back in the box setups ??
Working 32bit ITB and having 24bit ADC/DACs are on a whole different ballpark.


The only advantage of using actual 32bit float files is to have an "unlimited headroom". With tests I did back in the days with Waveab 5, 24bit files that exceeded 0dBFS were clipped, 32bit float were not. It's a savety rope, but one that I do not recommend - I found this out by chance myself. Actually after watching a "Mastering Tutorial Video" made and endorsed by Steinberg which clearly showed how not to do it.


t3toooo wrote:if you're not in the position to keep a greater headroom,like for example releasing music only through the internet,you need to find a way to be competitive.
the meter is pretty much staying on top and there is a loudness war if you want it or not,kid's loving it.
No, you always have a chance to make the world a better place and stay competitive. This is why there are metering "standards" existing (more like recommendations) and why you should stick to them.

The abuse (not "bent rules") happened in the 90ies thanks due to the Record Industry and the upcoming CD format - "i have to be louder than the competition" - wrong. You ultimately have to deliver the better product!

What good does it bring you if you release on a HD media but your stuff is squashed to sh't and ear piercing? Take Paul McCartney's last CD as example, or the last Beatles Remasters. Definitely not a good example. And since this material is usually also taken for radio play, it's making matters even worse.


Want to try it for yourself?
Take "The Day that Never Comes" from Metallica's "Death Magnetic" CD release, then run it through v1 of Jeroen Breebaarts Broadcast Multiband compressor with the FM setting. Do you still like what you hear? If you do, you missed the whole point of this thread.


t3toooo wrote:well somehow this is a gordian knob,imo.
It is, and I don't understand why it is so wrong to opt a proper gain staging method and stick to certain limitations? If we don't do/accept that, then we're not allowed to critisize the Loudness War either.
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Is the need for proper gain staging perhaps overstated in ITB mixes? Possibly

Given the less than professional setups of some people, would they even notice anyway? Probably not

Is there any benefit to not adhering to to proper gain staging methods? No

Are there any potential problems that may arise by haphazard gain staging? Yes

While there may be arguments that are valid for overstating its importance for most people's ITB setups, I see no existing benfits or reasons to NOT gain stage properly. Personally, I take care with my gain stages because that's what I was taught to do, it's easy and it makes sense to me, I sometimes have to use consoles and work in the analogue world, and because I know certain plugins dont behave optimally if I'm not careful. Oh, and I use a summing mixer so my mixes would be screwed if I didn't :)
Last edited by Fixed Error on Sat May 19, 2012 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Xenobt wrote:
highkoo wrote:OMG, screw you guys. :hihi:
...the chummy old analog pro set in his ways
Love it! Damn whippersnappers! :x

Hey, I'm not set in my ways, it's just a slight groove! :lol:
:lol:
Hey fair enough. No disrespect meant btw. Gaining experience should set you in a groove if youre doing it right!
Xenobt wrote: Why create levels in your individual tracks that just have to be re-adjusted if it's going to 16 or 24 bit anyway? I'm not arguing that you can, I'm asking why you would.
Aha!
Well shit thats a different question, I think.
People want to know if there is a 'price' to be paid sonically. Workflow issues are I think secondary in this discussion. So yes, in the wide view, its nonsense, but say you find yourself there; The point that should be taken by the 32bit/ITB/no clipping folks is that its ok.
ITB/32bit/no cliping/yadda ydaa... there is no price to pay. Its a big thing to realize, I think. It was for me. Or at least, the opposite was; That I could take a quiet file up and pay no price.
Xenobt wrote: I get more burnt tracks from young producers and beat makers than I care to mention, and when I ask what they work in, about half the time it's FL. And another quarter in Reason(s!). If 32 bit float gain structure has 100db of headroom, why are these tracks and mixes so distorted, especially since it's mostly ITB synths and samples?
I can only assume the are doing it on purpose. :P
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Agreed, I think these beat maker morons clip their shit on purpose.

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Compyfox wrote:
t3toooo wrote:if you're not in the position to keep a greater headroom,like for example releasing music only through the internet,you need to find a way to be competitive.
the meter is pretty much staying on top and there is a loudness war if you want it or not,kid's loving it.
No, you always have a chance to make the world a better place and stay competitive. This is why there are metering "standards" existing (more like recommendations) and why you should stick to them.

The abuse (not "bent rules") happened in the 90ies thanks due to the Record Industry and the upcoming CD format - "i have to be louder than the competition" - wrong. You ultimately have to deliver the better product!

What good does it bring you if you release on a HD media but your stuff is squashed to sh't and ear piercing? Take Paul McCartney's last CD as example, or the last Beatles Remasters. Definitely not a good example. And since this material is usually also taken for radio play, it's making matters even worse.


Want to try it for yourself?
Take "The Day that Never Comes" from Metallica's "Death Magnetic" CD release, then run it through v1 of Jeroen Breebaarts Broadcast Multiband compressor with the FM setting. Do you still like what you hear? If you do, you missed the whole point of this thread.


t3toooo wrote:well somehow this is a gordian knob,imo.
It is, and I don't understand why it is so wrong to opt a proper gain staging method and stick to certain limitations? If we don't do/accept that, then we're not allowed to critisize the Loudness War either.
a lot of mixes specially from the 60's 70's are squashed too.
there is mostly much ore headroom but i think the listener like the sound and that's the reason why producers often try to "replicate" the analog behave.

today audience is listening mostly at low volumes and if a sound seems loud, people get the impression,wow that's punchy.
it would be nice if people think,let me make that louder to enjoy more dynamics but this often isn't the case.

i'm myself much more a fan of dynamics so what i'm doing atm is to have some parts very loud with a rather squashed waveform and other parts not so squashed.

soundwise,think about jimmy hendrix playing a clean set without any pumping,i guess it doesn't work,
that's why "mastering" is an art.


the "record industry" is creating rules only to break them in in every single release?
look at the festivals,any electronic musician is breaking the rules.

as for the radio.
i think the radio stations are doing it wrong.


so gain staging comes into account in both cases,with smashed waveforms and without and it has nothing to do what the end result will be.

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highkoo wrote: Hey fair enough. No disrespect meant btw. Gaining experience should set you in a groove if youre doing it right!
Taken as a compliment, highkoo. I try to poke fun at myself and others too. It can get WAY too serious here!
highkoo wrote:there is no price to pay. Its a big thing to realize, I think. It was for me. Or at least, the opposite was; That I could take a quiet file up and pay no price.
Hey, the idea of not clipping a cool, but very loud vocal or drum fill or being able to bring something up without hearing the quiet stuff get grainy, what's not to like? But I really don't like to make it practice to have things on either extreme.
That being said, with 24 bit and up, some people print tracks at the level they'll be in the final mix, and they can get pretty low. So for things like that, the more bit depth the better.

On some VH1 documentary, I saw George Martin take the 8 tracks from Beatles song, and push the faders up to unity gain, and it was the album mix. A straight line of faders at 0db. Now THAT's gain staging!
Xenobt wrote: If 32 bit float gain structure has 100db of headroom, why are these tracks and mixes so distorted, especially since it's mostly ITB synths and samples?
highkoo wrote:I can only assume the are doing it on purpose. :P
Is there a shudder emoticon?

KVR/eSoundz: Xenobt

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Xenobt wrote: I get more burnt tracks from young producers and beat makers than I care to mention, and when I ask what they work in, about half the time it's FL. And another quarter in Reason(s!). If 32 bit float gain structure has 100db of headroom, why are these tracks and mixes so distorted, especially since it's mostly ITB synths and samples? When I do get split out tracks that combine into a big, punchy mix, there's a LOT of green on the meters.

KVR/eSoundz: Xenobt
There are plenty of stupid-ass know nothing kids that use FL Studio because it's an inherently very approachable yet still powerful program with fantastic support, a great forum, lifetime free upgrades, etc. etc.

The mistake you made is assuming the opposite is true (viz. that anyone that uses FL Studio is a dumbass).

The reason the tracks you are getting are distorted are because the people delivering the shit tracks to you...

1. Have no concept of sound engineering whatsoever and probably don't know anything about coding or computers or IT admin or anything that resembles engineering at all
2. Are rappers and don't really care what they hell appears on the screen or how to use plugins, they just want to throw down a verse and for it to sound "crispy" or whatever
3. Couldn't tell audible distortion from their own asshole

I work doing production with these same type of people pretty much every day. Now I don't make all my money from production but I do make enough each month to effectively enable me to plan to be able to retire on my music in a couple of years. Don't make the mistake in thinking that because I don't run an actual studio that I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. I've met major studio owners who were more clueless about audio engineering concepts than I was 6 years ago. I explained to one studio owner what a "boundary microphone" was, he had never even heard the term before. :roll:
highkoo wrote: Thanks rifftrax, for making some points heard through the huffnpuff.
No prob. I'm glad not everyone runs with the "now wait a minute I'm a big-wig XYZ position UBER-PRO ENGINEERING MASTER so my say-so is more important and viable than your say-so" nonsense. Some things are true. Some are not. End of story. I don't care if a homeless hippie gets on KVR and explains intricate technical points as long as they are right I'm going to listen.
Snare drums samples: the new and improved "dither algo"

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