Hello all. It maybe be cheap or unoriginal but I've been highly influenced by alot "IDM" genre music such as Bibio and Boards Of Canada. Alot of people seem to moan about copying other people's work but I'd like to know the theory and in particular the melodies because that's my weakest, I may be able to make a 3 note or 4 note melody but other than that I'm terrible. I know the basics of music theory, some scales, some chords progressions, keys within music.
Is there particular guidelines or directions or books which will help in this aspect(melodies)? because when I do make a briefly good melody I never know how to enhance it. My notes just never seem to connect emotionally or even additively. It's different to the traditional rock music because you can use sheet music and tabs and dissect it somewhat understanding how it's been made but I just seem stumped. Thanks if anyone does know what I mean haha.
What to do when your lost in music theory?
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musicalvarietyman musicalvarietyman https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=269720
- KVRer
- 13 posts since 30 Nov, 2011
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- KVRist
- 103 posts since 6 Feb, 2012
You're asking something akin to "I can write two-liner rhymes, but can't pull off proper poems which convey a message, could someone tell me how to do that"... 
A melody is essentially a poem, but without words. There IS some theory behind it, but that's not what makes the real difference.
Do you play a physical instrument? As a beginner, it's much easier to "write" melody on a piano or a guitar than on paper.
A melody is essentially a poem, but without words. There IS some theory behind it, but that's not what makes the real difference.Do you play a physical instrument? As a beginner, it's much easier to "write" melody on a piano or a guitar than on paper.
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- Banned
- 2033 posts since 19 Jun, 2011 from a world of Black Thunder chocs
musicalvarietyman wrote:Hello all. It maybe be cheap or unoriginal but I've been highly influenced by alot "IDM" genre music such as Bibio and Boards Of Canada. Alot of people seem to moan about copying other people's work but I'd like to know the theory and in particular the melodies because that's my weakest, I may be able to make a 3 note or 4 note melody but other than that I'm terrible. I know the basics of music theory, some scales, some chords progressions, keys within music.
Is there particular guidelines or directions or books which will help in this aspect(melodies)? because when I do make a briefly good melody I never know how to enhance it. My notes just never seem to connect emotionally or even additively. It's different to the traditional rock music because you can use sheet music and tabs and dissect it somewhat understanding how it's been made but I just seem stumped. Thanks if anyone does know what I mean haha.
There are quite a few good books and internet resources floating around - for instance check out JumpingJackFlash's guide in the music theory sub-forum here at KVR.
However, this is my favourite book for melodies and arrangements:
'Arranging Techniques for Synthesists' by Eric Turkel.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Arranging-Techn ... =8-1-spell
It's not cheap (although you can pick it up for a fair price second-hand) - but it is good.
It's not particularly IDM based, but there's no reason why its tips can't be put to that genre or a much wider area of music too.
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- KVRAF
- 7825 posts since 20 Jan, 2008
Agrees, 'Arranging Techniques for Synthesists' by Eric Turkel
Is prolly the best book on the market. But you do need knowledge going in. If you can't read notation it's a good time to learn.
Is prolly the best book on the market. But you do need knowledge going in. If you can't read notation it's a good time to learn.
Dell Vostro i9 64GB Ram Windows 11 Pro, Cubase, Bitwig, Mixcraft Guitar Pod Go, Linntrument Nektar P1, Novation Launchpad
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- KVRAF
- 3878 posts since 28 Jun, 2009 from Wherever I lay my hat
It sounds to me like you may be trying too hard. Maybe you've got some fixed ideas about what a melody "should" be like, or maybe you are overly critical with your output. A melody is just a bunch of notes strung together. Why not add some additional notes to the 4 you already have? Don't worry about whether it will sound "right" or "good" at first. A melody is a melody, it's neither good nor bad.
The idea behind my piece of advice is this: if you're able to free yourself from your preconceptions about what a melody should be like, then the melody itself should flow freely. Try to whistle something while doing the dishes, or sing while under the shower (i.e., when you're relaxed and not focused on "getting it right"). Again, don't worry about any "wrong" notes. Write that melody down, or try to play it on a keyboard, or record it and use an audio to midi plugin, enter it into your sequencer of choice and move on from there.
Another thing to try is to pick a sentence at random from a book, and then speak/sing it aloud while trying out different guises. Whisper it, proclaim it loudly, sing hesitatingly, angrily, whatever. You'll find that the best melodies are often related to the rhythm and pitch variations in our normal speech.
Hope this helps a bit. I always find that theory can be incredibly helpful, but only insofar as it gives you a frame to which you can adhere. It doesn't supply inspiration.
The idea behind my piece of advice is this: if you're able to free yourself from your preconceptions about what a melody should be like, then the melody itself should flow freely. Try to whistle something while doing the dishes, or sing while under the shower (i.e., when you're relaxed and not focused on "getting it right"). Again, don't worry about any "wrong" notes. Write that melody down, or try to play it on a keyboard, or record it and use an audio to midi plugin, enter it into your sequencer of choice and move on from there.
Another thing to try is to pick a sentence at random from a book, and then speak/sing it aloud while trying out different guises. Whisper it, proclaim it loudly, sing hesitatingly, angrily, whatever. You'll find that the best melodies are often related to the rhythm and pitch variations in our normal speech.
Hope this helps a bit. I always find that theory can be incredibly helpful, but only insofar as it gives you a frame to which you can adhere. It doesn't supply inspiration.
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- KVRer
- 8 posts since 17 May, 2012 from Underwater
Very Helpful advice.ariston wrote:It sounds to me like you may be trying too hard. Maybe you've got some fixed ideas about what a melody "should" be like, or maybe you are overly critical with your output. A melody is just a bunch of notes strung together. Why not add some additional notes to the 4 you already have? Don't worry about whether it will sound "right" or "good" at first. A melody is a melody, it's neither good nor bad.
The idea behind my piece of advice is this: if you're able to free yourself from your preconceptions about what a melody should be like, then the melody itself should flow freely. Try to whistle something while doing the dishes, or sing while under the shower (i.e., when you're relaxed and not focused on "getting it right"). Again, don't worry about any "wrong" notes. Write that melody down, or try to play it on a keyboard, or record it and use an audio to midi plugin, enter it into your sequencer of choice and move on from there.
Another thing to try is to pick a sentence at random from a book, and then speak/sing it aloud while trying out different guises. Whisper it, proclaim it loudly, sing hesitatingly, angrily, whatever. You'll find that the best melodies are often related to the rhythm and pitch variations in our normal speech.
Hope this helps a bit. I always find that theory can be incredibly helpful, but only insofar as it gives you a frame to which you can adhere. It doesn't supply inspiration.
One good thing about music is, when it hits you, you feel no pain -Bob marley
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musicalvarietyman musicalvarietyman https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=269720
- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 13 posts since 30 Nov, 2011
Thanks guys for the advice and links, And to the first response I do play physical instruments but I'm much better at rhythm compared to making melodies unless it's plucking notes from that specific chord or a variation of that chord. I'm more skilled at guitar/bass and only recently got keyboard. In terms of when I improvise I find I have pieces that will have potential but I think a issue for me is direction, I'd have a focus but then after awhile it will be completely different.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
people that obtain a facility with, or a gift for melody didn't get it from some theory.
you're asking a cart to pull a horse essentially. getting good at inventing melody comes from experience with {good} melody. which means copying other people's melodies who have some mastery with melody. for a while.
you sound like a rhythm guitarist/bassist that supplies basic function. You'll have to become the lead player.
nowadays with computer ease, so many people have gotten the notion you can read up on theory in place of real world experiences. Doesn't happen.
you're asking a cart to pull a horse essentially. getting good at inventing melody comes from experience with {good} melody. which means copying other people's melodies who have some mastery with melody. for a while.
you sound like a rhythm guitarist/bassist that supplies basic function. You'll have to become the lead player.
nowadays with computer ease, so many people have gotten the notion you can read up on theory in place of real world experiences. Doesn't happen.
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- KVRian
- 909 posts since 26 Nov, 2005
I have a friend, also a guitarist, who is going through the same thing. I will tell you what I told him. Forget the theory. There are only 12 notes, so keep trying different combinations until you find something you like. If you can only do four note melodies, take two of these and stick them together and you have an eight note melody. Once you have a melody you like, start making variations. Change individual notes and see what happens. Change the timing of the notes. Play it backwards. Start in the middle, play to the end and start over from the beginning. Play each note twice. Play every other note.
When I took Music Theory in college, we studied musical dictation. My professor said that to figure out what next note was given the current note, the next note would either be contained in the harmony or it would be the next note in the scale. This may have been true in the 18th century but it isn't true now. If you are sitting on a note in a melody and you want to know what the next note can be, it can be any of the 12 notes. Harmony and scales can be rough guidelines, but your ears are the ultimate arbiter. Play. Keep playing until you hear something you like, then keep playing. To quote the movie LA Story, "Free your mind and your body will follow."
When I took Music Theory in college, we studied musical dictation. My professor said that to figure out what next note was given the current note, the next note would either be contained in the harmony or it would be the next note in the scale. This may have been true in the 18th century but it isn't true now. If you are sitting on a note in a melody and you want to know what the next note can be, it can be any of the 12 notes. Harmony and scales can be rough guidelines, but your ears are the ultimate arbiter. Play. Keep playing until you hear something you like, then keep playing. To quote the movie LA Story, "Free your mind and your body will follow."
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
It kind of was, albeit 'harmony' followed 'part-writing' historically...JJBiener wrote: When I took Music Theory in college, we studied musical dictation. My professor said that to figure out what next note was given the current note, the next note would either be contained in the harmony or it would be the next note in the scale. This may have been true in the 18th century...
but for a person that wants to write music, it is yet to address the intention, the thought behind the next choice.
Look at JS Bach famous Bouree, you know that one Tull covered, orig. fr. Partita #3 for solo vln:
E F# G, F# E D#, E F# B, C# D# E, D C B ... WHY does the tune go up raising/down flatting the sixth and seventh? They called that melodic minor ultimately, but it's very satisfying whether you have that name or concept or not. It has more momentum, and more sense, up to E, down to B doing that. That does not follow the harmony necessarily; that is MELODY.
a lot of what's taken as 'serious' music, classical or jazz was a reconsideration of popular melody which oftimes was created initially by people uninterested in theory. How to write a tune is a subtle thing and I don't think it follows book learning, per se, all that well.
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- KVRian
- 1480 posts since 14 Jun, 2003
vast majority of pop music is in 4/4 and the key of E.
if your doing something wrong there will be a theory explanation of exactly what.
but i think your ears will tell you.
don't blame theory because of bad instructors, a bad physics teacher doesnt change the laws of physics no matter what he says and the same is true of music theory, if it sounds good then it is.
if someone is saying something that sounds good doesnt because of theory then hes not understanding how to apply theory in the specific situation, you wouldnt for instance try to prevent a heavy metal band from using parallel 5ths.
id just say keep things simple, major minor and dominant chords and melodies that hang on the same notes a lot. seemingly cant go wrong.
if your doing something wrong there will be a theory explanation of exactly what.
but i think your ears will tell you.
don't blame theory because of bad instructors, a bad physics teacher doesnt change the laws of physics no matter what he says and the same is true of music theory, if it sounds good then it is.
if someone is saying something that sounds good doesnt because of theory then hes not understanding how to apply theory in the specific situation, you wouldnt for instance try to prevent a heavy metal band from using parallel 5ths.
id just say keep things simple, major minor and dominant chords and melodies that hang on the same notes a lot. seemingly cant go wrong.
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- KVRAF
- 2256 posts since 29 May, 2012
My limited understanding of the subject says music "theory" is not "theory" in the proper sense, so don't get too serious about it. It's just a "book knowledge" of some sort, some kind of guide to make a sensible integration of sounds, but before doing that you have to have "something to say", "how to say it" is the next phase. The "theory" is also highly culture dependent, i.e. in China they have a different one, for example.
~stratum~