Vintage presets - do they need to be velocity responsive?

[himalaya]

When playing a preset which emulates a vintage synth, or a vintage vibe, do you like having velocity assigned to a parameter or a combination of parameters?

The keyboard in a vintage analogue synth like the Minimoog Model D, or Korg MonoPoly, or Oberheim Ob-1, etc. etc. is not velocity responsive. However all softsnyths are, and provided that your midi keyboard has velocity, each sound can be made to be more responsive than a non-velocity one. But does that extra expression count when emulating those old vintage sounds, which are not velocity responsive (in majority of cases)?

Myself, I like having as much expression control under my finger tips as is possible, so I like having velocity assigned to various parameters, just as much as having aftertouch and other controllers do various things too. However, when I play a real analogue vintage synth, there is no velocity and so the actual feel of playing such a synth is different. I dare to say, I like it a lot. There is a certain simplicity and a 'nostalgic' aura when playing such sounds. Perhaps this lack of velocity control is compensated by the direct access to each parameter via knobs and sliders - but that's another topic and not what I'm getting at.

As I make certain vintage themed patches I'm bound to use 'velocity' as by not using it, I may disappoint the end user, so 'velocity' is a must in the majority of presets I make. But when I get a nice vintage bass sound, for example, I like it as it is, without velocity. Then I add velocity, and I like it even more (crazy or what?) as now I can play with greater expression, but I no longer feel that vintage vibe! ...and on it goes in circles....

So, how do you feel about it?

When presented with presets which aim to reproduce a certain vintage vibe, do you like having a velocity responsive patch, are you dead set against it, or you just don't care either way? (I suppose if someone does not like velocity in a given preset, it can be deleted from whatever modulation system the synth is using. But this may create a problem as a velocity enabled preset may have the velocity modulated parameters set to different values to those when it was a non-velocity enabled preset, if that makes sense...)

Thank you for your vote.

[mcnoone]

I think it's difficult to say, as velocity can be set so that it has a playability, that "feels" natural to one playing it. Not sequencing it.
Whether it is a vintage sound or not. The settings, should be meticulously and individually decided on with each and every sound designed, and only if one has created the sound by playing the keyboard, not sequencing.
A preset that is leveled correctly with great care used in setting the right velocity levels through testing by playing, will also work good in a sequence.
A sound that was made, with some type of global or initialized velocity setting, and designed using a sequence, may sound good in a sequence, but more often than not, will not sound good when playing with ones fingers on a keyboard.
Everyone of my sounds is designed by playing keyboards, in various styles, then testing sequence. The advantages of using velocity, when set with care, are enormous imo, and they do have advantages, even in sequencing, and even with "some certain types" of vintage emulations.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

[DELETED]

[himalaya]

Whether it is a vintage sound or not.

Please focus only on the 'vintage' theme. I'm not really after the general use of 'velocity', but only as it pertains to the playability of vintage style sounds.

[mcnoone]

Whether it is a vintage sound or not.

Please focus only on the 'vintage' theme. I'm not really after the general use of 'velocity', but only as it pertains to the playability of vintage style sounds.

Well then "it depends" on which vintage sound, but one who sets a global-intial type settings for a whole set of vintage sounds, would not be a good thing imo.
Each individual vintage sound is still going to need the velocity adjusted however slightly to fit the type of vintage sound it is.
Vintage pad= more velocity response.
Vintage bass=less velocity response.

[ouroboros]

Yeah I think "vintage" for me leaves open the possibility for velocity until you are specifically emulating, at which point I would abandon it. As for what is useful to the target consumer, hmm. I would imagine adding velocity is a plus that wouldn't be faulted though people might complain of its absence.

[himalaya]

sometimes with synth basses it's of no consequence for example as i want the same velocity for every note and would do a midi function to force them to the same velocity anyway

That's possible, certainly. But doing so may alter the intended sound. For example, a non-velocity enabled preset may have a slow attack for amp envelope and filter envelope, it will have a low envelope amount setting with a lowish cutoff. But its velocity enabled version may take these parameters to the max, and so the envelope attack may rise to the max on high velocity, envelope amount may go to higher values, just like filter cutoff, so by maximizing the velocity by using a midi process you end up with a totally different sound (which you might like and prefer). But you may never know what the original sound was set as (which may not be of consequence, as what counts is your edited version, afterall).

for some keys sounds velocity is a must for expression.

But is it?
If you take the Roland Jupiter 8, it does not have a velocity capable keyboard, and yet it makes some gorgeous key sounds. Same for Oberheim OB-X, and the likes.

some synth leads.. can go either way..

They don't. Not on vintage mono synths.

[himalaya]

Well then "it depends" on which vintage sound, but one who sets a global-intial type settings for a whole set of vintage sounds, would not be a good thing imo.

Global setting of velocity is a real bad idea, in my view. Something I've never done.

[Teksonik]

Please focus only on the 'vintage' theme. I'm not really after the general use of 'velocity', but only as it pertains to the playability of vintage style sounds.

I would say two versions of each patch. One version with no velocity to precisely emulate a vintage synth and then a version with velocity to bring it into this century....I'm sure all the players would have loved velocity on their vintage boards.......

[himalaya]

I would say two versions of each patch.

I have thought of that too!

I'm sure all the players would have loved velocity on their vintage boards.......

You have a point! One I didn't consider.

[braj]

Its usually easy enough to add/remove velocity, and especially when you are sequencing with a mouse it isn't very important. It is nice even when I want no velocity difference to have a velocity responsive patch and fine the right level that works for that patch in the context I'm using it, and maybe increase the overall velocity at different points in the composition.

[zerocrossing]

You hit the nail on the head as to one of the reasons why I don't bother with vintage synths. I like instruments with "modern" perks like velocity and aftertouch, MIDI functionality, etc. I always end up just adding this to preset patches anyway and always using it in my own.

[JJBiener]

I guess I am a purist. If I am playing a preset that is supposed to sound like a real vintage synth, I don't want the velocity modulating things. I want it to sound like what it is supposed to sound like. Yes, velocity would make things more expressive, but if I wanted a more expressive preset, I would have selected one (or programmed one). If I am trying to sound like Rick Wakeman a la Journey to the Center of the Earth, then that is what I want to sound like.

On the other hand, if what I am looking for is a vintage-esque or vintage-like sound, then I am more open to introducing additional modulation sources like velocity. To me the answer is to have a variety of presets some with modulations and some without, and have some indicator in the preset name as to which kind it is.

I hope this helps.

[braj]

It also just depends on the particular patch, for instance and organ-type patch definitely shouldn't have velocity, but a piano-type definitely should. And then it depends again on the context they are used.

[mcnoone]

There's also the thing, that velocity modulations, when used in a subtle way, are hardly noticed with effect to the tone of the sound, but only effect it's feel, when played on the keys.

There are also good examples of velocity modulating the resonance when used with vintage 303 type basses. I've heard this used to great effect in some goa trance music. With velocity set to the resonance. In a sequenced a part.
You can randomize the velocity, which gives the spitting res effect, on random notes, which is something that vintage sound can do, and still fit into a modern music context.
Of course we can do this with a "random" modulator on the res as well.

So subtle use of velocity, so it doesn't effect the tone of the sound, but creates a better feel to the keys is the way to go with the vintage sounds in most, but not all cases.