Fatboy Slim thoughts about software synths

[_leras]

When comparing hardware with software we have to keep in mind that what we can hear on all the most famous old recordings like for example Vangelis' CS80 on Blade Runner soundtrack or Jarres Minimoog and Eminent 310U on his first few albums is NOT how these synths would really sound when connected directly to our modern high quality digital audio interfaces.

The sound we can hear is the sound of the whole analog signal chain.

So for example if we want to fairly compare old recordings with CS80 to the most faithful emulation of CS80 that is ME80 (IMHO), we should use:

1. Some tube preamp emulating plugin with a very subtle barely hearable setting.
2. A good tape saturation plugin.
3. Sometimes even a speaker and a microphone impulse or a real speaker and microphone to capture the real vibrations of the air in the room.

These 3 would "warmify" the often so called "cold" sound of any VSTi.

Then with added EQ, reverb and delay, the difference would get a LOT smaller.

I certainly agree that there are a raft of 'tricks' that can/need be used to warm/smooth/analogise VSTi sounds.

I was making the point that they aren't even needed really. Awesome sounding fully ITB productions have been made for the past 10+ years - clearly just not by FBSlim.

I don't think anyone would say that FBSlim was a hardcore proponent of analog synths anyway, perhaps apart from the 303! As mentioned plenty above, more of a sample chopper...

[zerocrossing]

It's a waste of my time. I already posted a clip where someone a/b'd Diva and the Phatty and the Phatty sounds clearly better. Did you listen to it?

It always depends on who makes them, and why. We'd have zero problems doing comparisons in which Diva sounds "better" than any synth featuring the circuits she's been modeled on

Gehen für sie, mein Freund.

[zerocrossing]

It's a waste of my time. I already posted a clip where someone a/b'd Diva and the Phatty and the Phatty sounds clearly better. Did you listen to it?

No, it's not a waste of time.
The "someone" who posted it, simply wasn't able to make it sound better than the Phatty, but I'd like to have a go at it, if I can find a decent mp3 sample of what bite and overdrive sound is like on the Phatty.
I guess I just need a challenge, and I don't believe that synths are limited by their architecture and code alone. Some extra effort in the sound making process may be all that's needed to make it better or equal to that Phatty sound.
If you know where that post is, then just post link, as I didn't see it.

I didn't say it would be a waste of your time, I said "it would be a waste of my time." Why? Because my argument isn't whether or not Diva, or any good software analog emulation, can sound like a real analog. I wholeheartedly believe they do, and as many have mentioned, can run rings around their dusty old counterparts. I do think the behavior of analog synths has been more or less nailed in the last 5 years. (as I predicted!)

Here's the real elephant in the room no one wants to talk about. Software synths are pretty new to the party, and only recently have even breached the quality level where they can be compared to hardware instruments. How long do you think this argument will last?

It doesn't matter if you like hardware or not. It'll more or less be gone in 5-10 years anyway except for fetish purposes and controllers. Korg, Waldorf and Roland are all starting to get in the software game. I'm sure Yamaha and Alesis will follow and maybe even Moog at some point. Enjoy it while it lasts kids!

Behavior was not what I was talking about, though it's been twisted a lot by other people's posts. What I'm talking about is sound quality. Again, go back to that example I posted and listen to them. Not just hear them, but listen. (warning: Yoda Mode) Close your eyes. Think not about bass. Think not about how the filter moves in time... yes...



Listen to the garbage in the signal. I'm no golden ear. I once sat though a day of Laurie Anderson and her producer Roma a/b'ing mics to use for a fake live performance to a point where I almost jumped out a window. They seemed to hear nuance I didn't.... or that I didn't feel made it better or worse, just slightly different. This is not that, though. Or maybe I'm just more attuned to it now. There's another demo someone posted on the "sounds like an Andromeda" thread that shows the same type of sound quality thing I'm talking about. Does Diva sound kick ass? It does. The differences I'm talking about are small, but undeniably there. I wish I had morie technical terms to describe it, but the words I can think of are mushy... muddy... phasey. No amount of running them though tube pres or tape saturators is going to fix that... just probably add a bit more distortion on top which may help mask it. Anyway, someone with more technical knowledge would have more precise language for it. I remember someone theorizing that it was a limitation of the VST format. I have no idea.

Do I own Diva? I sure do. It's one of the best. In fact, I'll use it in tracks right along side my hardware analogs because it does things that sound super cool to me and often that's more important than pure sound quality (which I've been saying all along) I'm very much a "get'r done" kind of producer in that respect. I don't like to fuss or second guess my choices. I feel that pisses all over the inspiration that led to them in the first place. I also tend to like simpler patches and put the complexity into the performance. But when I do want something complex and trippy, it's software all the way (though my DX200 spits out some awesome sounds)

However, when I want a rich, smooth, simple bass or lead tone that's going to be very promenent in a mix, I have to go hardware. Not even just analog hardware, I'll also put my DX200 and Nord Lead 2x in there. It just sounds a bit better. Necessary? Not at all. Does it help me make better music? Nope... well maybe It is inspiring though. Great sound always is. I just put the final piece of my hardware studio in place and I couldn't be happer. It's a Kemper Profiling Amplifier. Very digital, through and through, but it sounds glorious. So much better than the software (S-Gear and Amplitube) I'd been using, and that sounded good to me. So why did I spend the money on a box when I had something that sounded good? I started hearing demos of it and on some subliminal level I just felt they nailed something in the tone I hadn't heard in my sound for a very long time.

The funny part of all of this is I had no idea what songs Fatboy Slim even did. It wasn't until the post of "Funk Soul Brother" lyrics that I realized who we were talking about. Doesn't matter though. He's a musician with the funds and inclination to use hardware synths instead of software. I just happen to somewhat agree with his choice but even if I didn't I still think it's a valid choice. I also think being 100% ITB is valid if it helps you to make the music you want to make.

I'll condense my points into little chunks:

Software VA is more capable than hardware analog... unless you have a giant modular... and even then it's probably not polyphonic... and a billion dollars.

Sofware VA brings electronic music to the masses with it's low or even free cost.

Software VA does not sound as good as analog hardware, even though it can sound like it.

Software in general is easier to use for me and makes for a very quick and fun workflow. I respect those that disagree, and like a room full of knobs and cables, but I'd rather not have that.

[Tricky-Loops]

It's a waste of my time. I already posted a clip where someone a/b'd Diva and the Phatty and the Phatty sounds clearly better. Did you listen to it?

It always depends on who makes them, and why. We'd have zero problems doing comparisons in which Diva sounds "better" than any synth featuring the circuits she's been modeled on

Gehen für sie, mein Freund.

And just YOU of all people have complained that I couldn't speak English very well??

If you could speak as well German as I can speak English than we could understand each other much better, my friend.

Okay, GEHEN SIE, MEIN FREUND!!

[Tricky-Loops]

I'll condense my points into little chunks:

Software VA is more capable than hardware analog... unless you have a giant modular... and even then it's probably not polyphonic... and a billion dollars.

Sofware VA brings electronic music to the masses with it's low or even free cost.

Software VA does not sound as good as analog hardware, even though it can sound like it.

Software in general is easier to use for me and makes for a very quick and fun workflow. I respect those that disagree, and like a room full of knobs and cables, but I'd rather not have that.

So this could have been on the first page, and we would have known it instantly, that in your opinion hardware sounds better than software.

But I doubt that you "respect those that disagree", otherwise this thread wouldn't consist of 15 burdensome pages...

[Meffy]

If you could speak as well German as I can speak English than we could understand each other much better, my friend.:wink:

Just be glad I haven't been posting in Russian, Old Hazraic, or Flemish. Native speakers would either collapse laughing or be chasing me with pitchforks and torches.

[edit] The thread would have run to dozens of pages no matter what. So many people get defensive when someone else says they think this or that, and they disagree with that person's take on what's "best." I repeat Richard Feynmann's book title, something his wife told him:

What do you care what other people think?

Taking this lesson to heart frees one from so much worry. Do what works for you. Let others do what works for them. There is no conflict in doing both of these things.

[thecontrolcentre]

I had no idea what songs Fatboy Slim even did. It wasn't until the post of "Funk Soul Brother" lyrics that I realized who we were talking about.

What synths d'ya reckon he's using? I hear nothing but samples ...
Great video

[Tricky-Loops]

The thread would have run to dozens of pages no matter what. So many people get defensive when someone else says they think this or that, and they disagree with that person's take on what's "best." I repeat Richard Feynmann's book title, something his wife told him:

What do you care what other people think?

Taking this lesson to heart frees one from so much worry. Do what works for you. Let others do what works for them. There is no conflict in doing both of these things.

You should put one PDF copy of the book here for the KVR folk. It could prevent so many battles...

[Meffy]

Public library or bookstore. Well worth reading. But the title itself encapsulates the home truth I figure everyone would be better off keeping in mind.

[Kriminal]

i dont think norman cook is renowned for his use of soft synths, so i dont really see why his opininon is of any interest to anyone

[Meffy]

[This is NOT in reference to the post above; I split the trolling to another thread]

Enough trollishness. My guess as to who the puppet was will have to remain a guess. Certain of you who are sharper than me have probably nailed the ID.

[Arglebargle]

[mod edit: While you were posting this I split the sock puppetry off to another thread. I didn't want to delete your accurate and excellent reply so I've posted it over there.]

[robogone]

Well worth reading.

True of pretty much any of his works though.

[Meffy]

Troo dat, from the three-volume physics refresher to the collections of reminiscence. The world lost a great one when Feynmann died.

Pardon the OT-ness; back to work for me.

[zerocrossing]

It's a waste of my time. I already posted a clip where someone a/b'd Diva and the Phatty and the Phatty sounds clearly better. Did you listen to it?

It always depends on who makes them, and why. We'd have zero problems doing comparisons in which Diva sounds "better" than any synth featuring the circuits she's been modeled on

Gehen für sie, mein Freund.

And just YOU of all people have complained that I couldn't speak English very well??

If you could speak as well German as I can speak English than we could understand each other much better, my friend.

Okay, GEHEN SIE, MEIN FREUND!!

Actually a co-worker is in Germany all week and I've been sending out emails to our department where I create a phrase like, "Ich mag Schildkröten, aber im Moment hätte ich lieber ein Bier." and "Ich werde die Lampe einzuschalten, nachdem ich den Kaugummi aus meinem Schuh zu bekommen." which are all generated by Google translate. It's super funny to see what Outlook's translator turns it into.