This has nothing to do with the original poster, but...
I took piano lessons for ten years, clarinet for four years, guitar for one year, have been playing for 36 years, and composing for 28 years. When I read some of your discussion of advanced theory concepts, I feel like I might as well be sitting in on a discussion of DSP programming techniques or quantum physics. Its quite depressing, really.
I'll just get my hat and go back to my parallel fifths now.
Four part harmony help
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
I had a really excellent teacher at community college for one thing. I found the ways suitable to me. Some people don't. I have no way of knowing how I'd have fared with random internet browsing though or even at the library, I had a good solid course study.
I have to revisit my initial assessment of how hard the exercises presented here are. It's been over 35 yrs since I dealt with this. The actual tests I had were severely specific and presented terrific problems, this isn't that.
I have to revisit my initial assessment of how hard the exercises presented here are. It's been over 35 yrs since I dealt with this. The actual tests I had were severely specific and presented terrific problems, this isn't that.
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- KVRian
- 1084 posts since 12 Sep, 2008 from Your basement
Actually, I was taught that when resolving the German Aug. 6th, the normal voiceleading to the dominant involved PERMISSIBLE parallel fifths!deastman wrote: I'll just get my hat and go back to my parallel fifths now.
Of course you could try to conceal them behind a suspension or double suspension (I 6/4)...
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- KVRAF
- 7540 posts since 7 Aug, 2003 from San Francisco Bay Area
Yeah, 'cause I was just about to say the same thing, but you beat me to it.Ogg Vorbis wrote:Actually, I was taught that when resolving the German Aug. 6th, the normal voiceleading to the dominant involved PERMISSIBLE parallel fifths!deastman wrote: I'll just get my hat and go back to my parallel fifths now.
Of course you could try to conceal them behind a suspension or double suspension (I 6/4)...
Incomplete list of my gear: 1/8" audio input jack.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
My final at CCM had the guy taking points off - I nailed that mofo - for covered fifths. probably a german sixth move... I never forgot because I was so galled by that '96'. It should be acceptable, the problems created by dodging it is far worse than the malady.
You know you can find covered fifths in JS Bach's part writing.
but that's why I showed the french sixth!
You know you can find covered fifths in JS Bach's part writing.
but that's why I showed the french sixth!
Last edited by jancivil on Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRian
- 1084 posts since 12 Sep, 2008 from Your basement
or just go for the Higgs Boson supersymmetry chord.deastman wrote: Yeah, 'cause I was just about to say the same thing, but you beat me to it.
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JumpingJackFlash JumpingJackFlash https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=44005
- KVRian
- 1227 posts since 10 Oct, 2004
I was taught this as well, although like you say, it is preferable to move first to a I6/4.Ogg Vorbis wrote:I was taught that when resolving the German Aug. 6th, the normal voiceleading to the dominant involved PERMISSIBLE parallel fifths!
Unfamiliar words can be looked up in my Glossary of musical terms.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
well my first reaction was you will need 16/4 to avoid the consecutives, but the melody appears to indicate that's a full cadence, full period and I wouldn't like to insist on that dodge as preferable just to follow that rule. Chances are for that tune it's unwieldy.
I had two harmony teachers who were great but I never heard about being allowed consecutive or covered 5ths. Around that time I was analyzing music independent of that course and realized that rule isn't followed as strictly in practice as in class.
BUT, I think having that kind of restriction was really good for me, having the severe kind of tests we got finally with no such out was a great exercise for the mind.
I had two harmony teachers who were great but I never heard about being allowed consecutive or covered 5ths. Around that time I was analyzing music independent of that course and realized that rule isn't followed as strictly in practice as in class.
BUT, I think having that kind of restriction was really good for me, having the severe kind of tests we got finally with no such out was a great exercise for the mind.
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- KVRist
- 102 posts since 6 Jun, 2012 from USA
I went to Curtis and then Juilliard and i can say school accounted for about 15% of what I learned in terms of tonal chops. You just can't learn it in 2 years and there aren't really any harmony courses for your masters. And what you learn in theory and what happens in practice are two different things. I just went thru as much music and analyzed it to the last note.
Took me a lot of study and hours analyzing scores. Just doing mahler's stuff took me about 6 months per symphony. But i went into every detail using photoshop to notate the orchestration, the chords, the voice leading, the counter point .... The basics are really all you need as everything else, is just a permutation of that. Consider that most composers did not really have a harmony background in that chord succession was not really taught how we learn it. The idea of functional chords is relatively new ie turn of the 19th century. I think Schoenberg said it best in that it is just a system of representation. You don't need a formal theory to have a theory. Anyone that has a system in their head to organize pitch relationships is doing theory. I found the general idea of tonal harmony a good base but it starts to degrade as chromaticism made voice leading more important than say chord functions or what not.
The traditional way was with a cadential 6/4 and i think it is important to know why this was used and understand the sound when you don't use it. In terms of is it permissible, i mean Beethoven does it in his first stage which was considered classical rather than romantic. I think in terms of a main cadence, it would sound anachronistic to not prepare the V with its cadential 6/4 version as the times it isn't used, well it is usually intentional and is rarely at a main cadence. Would be more say when an applied dominant is re interpreted as a Germ6 to go to a foreign key region. Then preparation is not so crucial in sounding authentic.
Took me a lot of study and hours analyzing scores. Just doing mahler's stuff took me about 6 months per symphony. But i went into every detail using photoshop to notate the orchestration, the chords, the voice leading, the counter point .... The basics are really all you need as everything else, is just a permutation of that. Consider that most composers did not really have a harmony background in that chord succession was not really taught how we learn it. The idea of functional chords is relatively new ie turn of the 19th century. I think Schoenberg said it best in that it is just a system of representation. You don't need a formal theory to have a theory. Anyone that has a system in their head to organize pitch relationships is doing theory. I found the general idea of tonal harmony a good base but it starts to degrade as chromaticism made voice leading more important than say chord functions or what not.
The traditional way was with a cadential 6/4 and i think it is important to know why this was used and understand the sound when you don't use it. In terms of is it permissible, i mean Beethoven does it in his first stage which was considered classical rather than romantic. I think in terms of a main cadence, it would sound anachronistic to not prepare the V with its cadential 6/4 version as the times it isn't used, well it is usually intentional and is rarely at a main cadence. Would be more say when an applied dominant is re interpreted as a Germ6 to go to a foreign key region. Then preparation is not so crucial in sounding authentic.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
I'm not sure chord function was ever as important as what was taught by the time I went off to music school.
the figures such as 6/4 indicate voice-leading, and the preparation and result of such a cadence were voice-leading practice before the system of chords was the way, seems to me.
there are these yet more novel approaches, to call 6/4 'C' as if it's just a position of a block chord but I think that's ignoring too much.
All I know of 'a master's' course is the Form and Analysis paper I was allowed after finishing the whole of 'harmony' there, and there was no class for it, just 'go write this thing and be graded'.
I'm happy with what I took away from it. More than two years was of no interest to me. I think I have tonal function. I'm not that compelled by the repertoire as far as cloning it, life's short and another century of music was under the bridge by the time I felt the need for that study. Donald Grout went a ways towards disabusing me of the Ultimate Superiority of Western Music around this time.
the figures such as 6/4 indicate voice-leading, and the preparation and result of such a cadence were voice-leading practice before the system of chords was the way, seems to me.
there are these yet more novel approaches, to call 6/4 'C' as if it's just a position of a block chord but I think that's ignoring too much.
All I know of 'a master's' course is the Form and Analysis paper I was allowed after finishing the whole of 'harmony' there, and there was no class for it, just 'go write this thing and be graded'.
I'm happy with what I took away from it. More than two years was of no interest to me. I think I have tonal function. I'm not that compelled by the repertoire as far as cloning it, life's short and another century of music was under the bridge by the time I felt the need for that study. Donald Grout went a ways towards disabusing me of the Ultimate Superiority of Western Music around this time.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
as far as 'authentic', I don't take the existence of an aug sixth as a late romantic device per se. I harmonized that first melody just to refresh a skill set and I don't think that exercise exceeds baroque practice insofar as style actually.
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- KVRist
- 102 posts since 6 Jun, 2012 from USA
the emergence of this type of theory was more to describe classical periodso although it was late, it was not to describe romantic music. The romantic period kinda distorted the rules and conventions outlined in most tonal harmony books gently easing into non tonality.
I don't think study is for cloning but learning. You hear something, you want to learn it. My philosophy is that top know something is to be able to replicate it.
I don't think study is for cloning but learning. You hear something, you want to learn it. My philosophy is that top know something is to be able to replicate it.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
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- KVRist
- 102 posts since 6 Jun, 2012 from USA
was just trying to clarify what i said as I don't seem to think i explained myself properly. I really have no interest in pedantic displays of arcane knowledge so if there is a competition, i'm not in it.
I will be the first one to tell you theory is a silly The basis of tonal harmony, which invokes chord functionality by the very nature as it enforces a tonality is rather silly. Chords don't want to go places. Human trends do. V doesn't want to go to I no more than I wants to go to IV. Anyhow.
I will be the first one to tell you theory is a silly The basis of tonal harmony, which invokes chord functionality by the very nature as it enforces a tonality is rather silly. Chords don't want to go places. Human trends do. V doesn't want to go to I no more than I wants to go to IV. Anyhow.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
let me clarify 'cloning' in that statement. It seemed you took from that remark a necessary deficiency.
I was just not as interested in say post-Wagner as you in your own deeper study. or a great deal of western music before 20th c. or at least Debussy/Ravel/Satie, by the time I had the wherewithal to gain the ability to analyze it. I felt two years was enough. If I had to do it all over out of hindsight I would perhaps do less (time at CCM).
I think we are in agreement about the *framing* of harmony 'theory' in order to enforce the continuance of a trend.
I was just not as interested in say post-Wagner as you in your own deeper study. or a great deal of western music before 20th c. or at least Debussy/Ravel/Satie, by the time I had the wherewithal to gain the ability to analyze it. I felt two years was enough. If I had to do it all over out of hindsight I would perhaps do less (time at CCM).
I think we are in agreement about the *framing* of harmony 'theory' in order to enforce the continuance of a trend.