What do you think of Hybrid and Structure in Pro tools?

[mikedw]

What do you think of Hybrid and Structure in Pro tools?

Is it good synths and sounds good?

http://www.avid.com/US/avid-tv/HybridPart1

[Brittlestem]

No. Poor GUI design (Structue in particular is waaaay too small for a professional sampler), overpriced and little to no 3rd party support.
And bear in mind Avid charge for *every* upgrade ie Hybrid 1.5-1.6.
Pro Tools = great.
AIR virtual instruments = Avoid.

Stick to Kontakt and something like Zebra, you get much more bang for you buck.

[mikedw]

But i think Hybrid sound really good

[Robert Randolph]

Structure is actually awesome. I don't know how you could say the UI is too small. I've never had any issues relative to that.

Avid also does not charge for every upgrade. The 1.5-1.6 hybrid upgrade mentioned was a relatively major update, similar to what other companies would also charge an upgrade fee for. They just suck with marketing the update to make it seem worth the money.

Outside of scripting support, there's not much Kontakt can do that structure can't. AFAIK everything supported in kontakt also works in Structure besides scripting specific functions. I personally find the structure UI much easier to navigate and work with library programming as well.


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Hybrid sounds alright, but personally I find it quite a pain to work in. Having multiple sections with tabs just makes it difficult to find stuff without randomly clicking all over the place. The internal routing isn't very obvious either. Modules are not laid out similarly to their signal flow. Anytime there's something I'd conceivably grab hybrid for, I use fabfilter twin 2 instead. Similar layout and type of synth, more options, better layout/ui and IMO it sounds much better. edit: the suggestion of zebra is also good.


Personally, I think you're missing the real gem of the avid/air instruments: Transfuser. That thing is amazing. It's like a combination of stutter edit, dr. rex, artillery, the finger and more. If you're just looking for an instrument then I can imagine why you're look it over, but if you want to get structure/hybrid just get the Pro Tools Instrument Expansion Pack. You could certainly find a better synth, sampler, and drum environment than hybrid/velvet/structure/strike... but nothing out there really comes close to transfuser. (and I own quite a few similar products)

edit: I also don't think it's overpriced. You can buy one of the components very cheap (and legally!) on ebay, then use one of the upgrade/crossgrade options. The whole bundle shouldn't cost you more than $250.

[Brittlestem]

But i think Hybrid sound really good

So why the f**k are you asking?

[Brittlestem]

Structure is actually awesome. I don't know how you could say the UI is too small. I've never had any issues relative to that.

Avid also does not charge for every upgrade. The 1.5-1.6 hybrid upgrade mentioned was a relatively major update, similar to what other companies would also charge an upgrade fee for. They just suck with marketing the update to make it seem worth the money.

Outside of scripting support, there's not much Kontakt can do that structure can't. AFAIK everything supported in kontakt also works in Structure besides scripting specific functions. I personally find the structure UI much easier to navigate and work with library programming as well.

Personally, I think you're missing the real gem of the avid/air instruments: Transfuser. That thing is amazing. It's like a combination of stutter edit, dr. rex, artillery, the finger and more. If you're just looking for an instrument then I can imagine why you're look it over, but if you want to get structure/hybrid just get the Pro Tools Instrument Expansion Pack. You could certainly find a better synth, sampler, and drum environment than hybrid/velvet/structure/strike... but nothing out there really comes close to transfuser. (and I own quite a few similar products)

Oh well, if it's *actually* awesome then hey, you win the prize for rightness. The UI being too small - perhaps other people are using bigger screens that you are, maybe? Possibly? Try loading a 16 instrument orchestral template into Structure and navigating that compared to Kontakt with it's resizable GUI.
And "outside from scripting" - why would you possibly want to buy a sampler which doesn't have scripting? What does Structure do that makes it so
mor desirable that Kontakt or MachFive?

As for the upgrades, you're saying on the one hand they don't charge for every upgrade but...then they do but it's really not an upgrade. Sure.
Transfuser 1.3 is $99 for what - a f**king EQ? That's not "bad marketing" that's just charging for what other companies would consider a minor update.
Geist is far superior to Transfuser in terms of both GUI design, 3rd party support and updates from FXpansion.

[Robert Randolph]

Oh well, if it's *actually* awesome then hey, you win the prize for rightness. The UI being too small - perhaps other people are using bigger screens that you are, maybe? Possibly? Try loading a 16 instrument orchestral template into Structure and navigating that compared to Kontakt with it's resizable GUI.

I'm not sure why you're so angry I routinely use large instrument templates and I have very little difficulty navigating in structure. Screen size is pretty irrelevant, from 2560x1600 dual (old studio setup), 1900x1200 single (laptop) or 1080p dual (current studio), I have little difficulty navigating structure.

Kontakt certainly offers a more screen real estate to be used, and can be easier to use in same cases, but that has little to do with whether another software is usable or not. I agree that Kontakt's UI is overall more accessible. Structure could be better, but it's by no means unusable or 'bad'.

And "outside from scripting" - why would you possibly want to buy a sampler which doesn't have scripting? What does Structure do that makes it so mor desirable that Kontakt or MachFive?

I would guess that most people never touch the scripting capabilities of Kontakt, nor do they make use of them with any regularity outside of orchestral libraries. Most libraries available are not kontakt exclusive and do not require any scripting facilities, and most that do are available within a player.

Structure offers integration with bi-directional drag n drop, region list, and some of the other session management tools. Neither MachFive or Kontakt offer these currently in Pro Tools. Structure is also cheaper than MachFive or Kontakt given you use any of the available deals and crossgrades.

I also do not think Structure is more desirable than MachFive or Kontakt in any general sense, and in fact I implied otherwise in my first post. I don't think it's conducive to a informative discussion to beg the question in such an inflammatory manner.

As for the upgrades, you're saying on the one hand they don't charge for every upgrade but...then they do but it's really not an upgrade. Sure.
Transfuser 1.3 is $99 for what - a f**king EQ? That's not "bad marketing" that's just charging for what other companies would consider a minor update.
Geist is far superior to Transfuser in terms of both GUI design, 3rd party support and updates from FXpansion.

I have no idea why you're trying to say in the first sentence other than maybe setting up some sort of ridiculous strawman. It's certainly unrelated to anything I've actually written.

Transfuser 1.3 came with 2gb of added content, a new bassline module and an EQ as features. There were several workflow improvements and bugfixes as well. If it's not worth $99 to you, then don't pay it. Pretty simple.

Geist also doesn't fill the same role as Transfuser, though they do have a good bit of feature crossover. Transfuser has a more extensive performance and effects feature set, and Geist is much better with loop manipulation and sequencing.

As for geist being superior in terms of updates, I guess you forgot the Guru->Geist transition.

[Brittlestem]

Kontakt certainly offers a more screen real estate to be used, and can be easier to use in same cases, but that has little to do with whether another software is usable or not. I agree that Kontakt's UI is overall more accessible. Structure could be better, but it's by no means unusable or 'bad'.

Indeed - "Poor GUI design...overpriced and little to no 3rd party support." as I initially said. Why you feel the need to defend it so vigorously is beyond me, but each to their own.

As to the rest, well, if you think Transfuser and Structure are really better value than Geist and Kontakt then, hey, fine.
I've still got the several gigs of loops from Fxpansion that were free and I value the scripting as used by so many libraries and the vast number of 3rd party sounds I get access to.
So Structure 1.1 for $49 (which is shameful after the clusterfuck Digi made of it's initial release) and yet more cash for some loops in Transfuser?
I will indeed pass.

[Robert Randolph]

Oh well. I should have known better.

[Brittlestem]

For anyone who's interested in Transfuser, here's a list I made in 2009 of desperately needed fixes, none of which, AFAIK, made it into the $99 1.3 update:

http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=231890&page=3

Digidesign UK Product Specialist

And...the list Gordan made:

1. The ability to drag'n'drop/swap around Drum Pad FX.

2. The option to make Drum Pad send fx *post* volume/pan - so lowering a Drum Pad's volume also lowers it's send FX and changing a Pads pan setting is reflected in the Send FX.

3. The ability to drag a wave file from the Recorder into a User Audio folder in the Browser.
This makes the inability to save your own Drum Pad creations slightly less painful to workaround.

4. The ability to save your own cool Drum Pad creations - is there no
way that a wholly self-content file can be saved with FX/envelopes etc?

5. Most importantly, the ability to increase the Sequencer Pane to allow all Drum Lanes to be seen. I can't emphasize how crippling it is to not be able to see all the Sequencer Lanes at the same time.

6. Ditto using slices, trying to line up the desired slice to the right step is very fiddly with the present pane size.

7. Audition Browser samples *with* Insert/Track/Master FX. I very often find a cool snare only to find that with enhancers/compressor/maximizer on the FX it sounds completely different.
Also audition Browser samples in situ ie temporarily replacing the destination Drum Pad as the Drum Seq.

8. An option that when you select a slice it sounds/plays. Removes the need to audition it via the vertical piano of the piano roll and then hope that you've selected the right slice.

9. Being able to drag along a Sequencer Lane with the pencil tool, creating or deleting notes as you can in the Transfuser effect "Gater" would *greatly* speed up writing.

10. Also, having the most frequently used commands such as Copy/Paste current bar, Undo/redo, *deselect* brought out onto the GUI would, again really speed up the workflow.

11. The ability to mute/solo the different FX lanes in the Gater effect.

12. A Mario-like function for use with the gater- ie randomize option for each lane.

12. Mono/Stereo output button on each Drum Pad.

13. Back and forward arrows for Drum Synth Kits (above the drum pads)
For the FX presets.

14. Reverse and Note Repeat (a la GURU for glitchy effects) pages in the Drum Seq.

15. Copy and paste Track Automation Lanes. Copy Automation Lanes steps 1-16 to 17-32 and vice vers

17. Ability to save *User* FX presets. Also, FX "init" presets. (for Gater, for example.)


18. Pressing Record in Transfuser and then Play in Pro Tools starts
Transfuser Recording - with subsequent trigger notes from a MIDI region change the pattern in Transfuser - enabling one to play/record into Transfuser while listening to the whole Pro Tools session.
ie "wait for note" Record mode with proper pattern change.

19. Also, being able to play/Rec a pattern when it has no data in it - at present you have to draw in a note before it'll play.

19. Create cresendo works based on the current Page selected ie
if filter is selected then it creates a filtered crescendo, ditto pitch etc

20. Altering the settings on the Pitch etc page using the mouse is set to the slower setting, currently *always* requires a key modifier to enter the inevitable small change.

21. Drag and drop FX *exchanges* them rather than overwrites.

21. A Fine Tune page or alternative setting for the Pitch page..

22. Selecting or "highlighting" some lanes and choosing "copy current bar" and then pasting into a new bar *shouldn't* overwrite unselected lanes - thereby allowing one to copy and paste different lanes into different patterns and combine the best of both.

23. Right-clicking with the pencil tool deletes a node (ie slicer pan node) or note.

24. Option to turn off scroll while recording.

25. If left-clicking a lane in a Drum-Synth "Selects" all on that lane can we have right-clicking "Deselects" all - much, much easier than constantly having to go to the drop-down menu.

26. Ability to save Drum Pad Send FX and Insert FX set-ups.

27. In the Drum Synth display for each sample, having the wave overlayed the pitch/amp/filter thereby making sound design much easier.

28. At present it's impossible to draw nodes in the Drum Pads pitch/amp window in the *upper* far 3rd of the screen where the samples name is - and therefore deleting is also difficult if the zoom places a node in that area.

28. The drag'drop of Drum Pads has been unexpectedly removed with no explanation. The proposed solution unfortunately doesn't copy the old Pads pain-stakingly tweaked FX or sends - which also of course cannot be saved and reloaded into a new Pad.

A more elegant solution would be to have an option on the Tool(?) page which "Enables Drum Pads to be *swapped*" thereby also removing the danger of accidently copying over an existing Drum Pad.


29. The ability to copy and paste a single Drum Seq Lane into another single Lane on multiple or single pages- ie doubling up a kick Lane at the moment including all the velocity/pan/time information seems impossible, ditto trying out a Lane with a different sound etc.

30. Sample start and end midi learnable/Track Automation Lane usable

31. In the Drum Synth be able to load new samples leaving the destination Pad's FX and enevelopes intact.

32. Gater FX - copy/exchange/swap pages 1 and 2