Just downloaded Reason 6.5 plus a couple of RE's from the shop...

[angelremington]

[/quote]
Actually I don't agree with you. It means Propellerheads can now concentrate on new features when updating Reason instead of new rack devices. It means they can now prioritise stuff like audio quantize, mixer groups, midi out and improvements to the sequencer etc etc instead of new effects and synths.

And they will still concentrate on the Reason core because major Reason updates are all paid for updates. What you are suggesting is like saying Steinberg won't update Cubase because they make money from selling VSTi's. Yes, but they also make money from selling new versions of Cubase.

Also I'd doubt we're going to see many new RE devices from Props going forward, the RE shop is mainly about third parties.[/quote]

And you know for a fact that this is what propellerheads are going to do:
"they can now prioritize stuff like audio quantize, mixer groups, midi out and improvements to the sequencer etc etc"?
Or is it just a speculation or wishful thinking?

Please don't get me wrong, this is my wishful thinking too, especially the MIDI OUT so can integrate my hardware synths with it, now that we can record audio and work with audio files... I've been using reason for couple of years now and i'm pretty happy with it in general, but still pisses me off that there's no such a basic function as midi out, import export as mp3 would be nice too, functions that even the most basic DAWs have it as standard, even my $59 Cakewalk music maker 6.
Well, lets hope that all this will happen in next update, I love reason and is pretty much the only thing i use for music making even though i have other software that i bought or came with my hardware synths etc, but i am not going to be a Reason flag-waver and keep justifying everything they do or what they charge etc...

[liquidsound]

"They now have finally the time to improve and add features."
I haven't seen that statement ANYWHERE!
It's a damn Mantra from whishful fanboys.

We better step our foot down now and influence their course of action or the saga gets out of hand.
I like Reason (not excessively), I don't like what they are doing with it, and I invested in it, so I have something to say about it.
Again, you vote with your money.

[eXode]

I downloaded the freebies, the LFO device is a joke. We have LFOs coming out of our ears already in every CV synth that exists. The saturator is nice though quite silly with one knob. TBH I feel like many of these REs are a joke, the prices especially so, with a few exceptions. Fxpansion being one, but I was getting messages that my computer was too slow (right... I have a quad core QX6800) even playing with etch red. I was not doing anything CPU intensive, simply playing some audio and running etch as an insert FFS.

This coupled with not a whole lot of REAL innovation plus the previous serious issues mean I'm very much 360 my opinion.

How many VST plugins do you think there were when VST was launched? We are talking about a format that is completely new after all (it's been out, what? 4 days?).

My point is that it's an entirely new format. Do you think that 3rd parties will learn this new environment in a week? This is why we see simpler devices now, they want to know if it's worth their money and time to develop for this new platform. I think you are smart to keep your copy of Reason, maybe RE platform is like a fine wine and it needs to mature a bit. :)

The LFO device may be a joke for you but I really like it. No other device in Reason has phase settings for the LFO nor the shuffle (which works almost like a waveshaper). That it also doubles as a simple monosynth is something I personally like a lot, Great for dirty and powerful bass and leads. For something that we didn't have to pay for I find it useful.

Regarding the performance, perhaps you should report it to props directly instead? I have issues too with 6.5. I can't run Thor + Alligator because of a bug and some other people with me (get computer too slow). It seems to affect users with 32-bit Windows (Vista in my case), there is a thread about it in the user forum. So if you have problems you should report them too.

[headquest]

How many VST plugins do you think there were when VST was launched? We are talking about a format that is completely new after all (it's been out, what? 4 days?).

True, but that was then ... this is now. Why turn the technological clock back 15 years?

The *official reason* is that VST is so bad, that if you dare to try using one you will get a BSOD, etc.

Well we all know that VST isn't exactly perfect, but most computer musicians do use VST/etc without the dire consequences Propellerhead try to convince us of. As for RE ... the problems and limitations are already - after 4 days - very apparent. Grymmjack highlighted them very succinctly.

[v1o]

And you know for a fact that this is what propellerheads are going to do:
"they can now prioritize stuff like audio quantize, mixer groups, midi out and improvements to the sequencer etc etc"?
Or is it just a speculation or wishful thinking?

Please don't get me wrong, this is my wishful thinking too, especially the MIDI OUT so can integrate my hardware synths with it, now that we can record audio and work with audio files... I've been using reason for couple of years now and i'm pretty happy with it in general, but still pisses me off that there's no such a basic function as midi out, import export as mp3 would be nice too, functions that even the most basic DAWs have it as standard, even my $59 Cakewalk music maker 6.
Well, lets hope that all this will happen in next update, I love reason and is pretty much the only thing i use for music making even though i have other software that i bought or came with my hardware synths etc, but i am not going to be a Reason flag-waver and keep justifying everything they do or what they charge etc...

It's speculation based on the fact that Prop's themselves admitted, that they introduced Rack Extensions as a solution because their users were always asking for more features and wanted to work within Reason. They are a small company and we all know Props are notoriously slow in updating Reason, so the RE store at a minimum frees resources to concentrate on core features. As an example we now have beat repeaters, glitch machines and loopers - so no one is going to be demanding for these features anymore because we have that now.

When they released Record 1.0 (which is now integrated in Reason), they did say their goal was to make it fully featured and not just a sound module like Reason was at the time. Which is why they added stuff like Comping and Pitch Correction. So there is no reason to believe these goals have changed, they still want to make it fully featured and implement alot of the basic functionality that we users expect from this type of software.

[captain caveman]

How many VST plugins do you think there were when VST was launched?

You're ignoring the point that there are many, many permutations of nearly every kind of plugin available in VST world now, so this is the reasoning behind the Props developing yet another format to add to...

VST
AU
RTAS
TDM
AAX
LADSPA

..., which leads to the conclusion that the decision was 100% commercial, and 0% customer (as if that ever actually happens) or tech focussed. The technical excuses they are presenting don't add up any more than if they wrote a VST -> VST/RE Reason wrapper that ran in a seperate process anyway.

Now if there was an RE -> VST wrapper then all of this talk of investment being tied to Reason would end. Maybe that's an idea.

[angelremington]

And you know for a fact that this is what propellerheads are going to do:
"they can now prioritize stuff like audio quantize, mixer groups, midi out and improvements to the sequencer etc etc"?
Or is it just a speculation or wishful thinking?

Please don't get me wrong, this is my wishful thinking too, especially the MIDI OUT so can integrate my hardware synths with it, now that we can record audio and work with audio files... I've been using reason for couple of years now and i'm pretty happy with it in general, but still pisses me off that there's no such a basic function as midi out, import export as mp3 would be nice too, functions that even the most basic DAWs have it as standard, even my $59 Cakewalk music maker 6.
Well, lets hope that all this will happen in next update, I love reason and is pretty much the only thing i use for music making even though i have other software that i bought or came with my hardware synths etc, but i am not going to be a Reason flag-waver and keep justifying everything they do or what they charge etc...

It's speculation based on the fact that Prop's themselves admitted, that they introduced Rack Extensions as a solution because their users were always asking for more features and wanted to work within Reason. They are a small company and we all know Props are notoriously slow in updating Reason, so the RE store at a minimum frees resources to concentrate on core features. As an example we now have beat repeaters, glitch machines and loopers - so no one is going to be demanding for these features anymore because we have that now.

When they released Record 1.0 (which is now integrated in Reason), they did say their goal was to make it fully featured and not just a sound module like Reason was at the time. Which is why they added stuff like Comping and Pitch Correction. So there is no reason to believe these goals have changed, they still want to make it fully featured and implement alot of the basic functionality that we users expect from this type of software.

Well, lets hope so

[eXode]

True, but that was then ... this is now. Why turn the technological clock back 15 years?

The *official reason* is that VST is so bad, that if you dare to try using one you will get a BSOD, etc.

Well we all know that VST isn't exactly perfect, but most computer musicians do use VST/etc without the dire consequences Propellerhead try to convince us of. As for RE ... the problems and limitations are already - after 4 days - very apparent. Grymmjack highlighted them very succinctly.

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about whether it's sound to make a judgement on the potential complexity of future RE's based on the current lineup of devices that have been co-released with a plugin format that is 4 days old.

My post was a reply to grymmjack and his concerns that the RE's currently on offer isn't "innovative" enough.

[eXode]

How many VST plugins do you think there were when VST was launched?

You're ignoring the point that there are many, many permutations of nearly every kind of plugin available in VST world now, so this is the reasoning behind the Props developing yet another format to add to...

VST
AU
RTAS
TDM
AAX
LADSPA

..., which leads to the conclusion that the decision was 100% commercial, and 0% customer (as if that ever actually happens) or tech focussed. The technical excuses they are presenting don't add up any more than if they wrote a VST -> VST/RE Reason wrapper that ran in a seperate process anyway.

Now if there was an RE -> VST wrapper then all of this talk of investment being tied to Reason would end. Maybe that's an idea.

See my response to headquest as the same applies here. Please don't take my quotes out of context, my post was a reply to grymmjack and his concerns that the RE's currently on offer isn't "innovative" enough.

[captain caveman]

How many VST plugins do you think there were when VST was launched?

You're ignoring the point that there are many, many permutations of nearly every kind of plugin available in VST world now, so this is the reasoning behind the Props developing yet another format to add to...

VST
AU
RTAS
TDM
AAX
LADSPA

..., which leads to the conclusion that the decision was 100% commercial, and 0% customer (as if that ever actually happens) or tech focussed. The technical excuses they are presenting don't add up any more than if they wrote a VST -> VST/RE Reason wrapper that ran in a seperate process anyway.

Now if there was an RE -> VST wrapper then all of this talk of investment being tied to Reason would end. Maybe that's an idea.

See my response to headquest as the same applies here. My post was a reply to grymmjack.

Your response to my response cannot be the same response you gave to headquest in lieu of grymmjack's original prod though since mine were not his.

[Anosou]

..., which leads to the conclusion that the decision was 100% commercial, and 0% customer (as if that ever actually happens) or tech focussed. The technical excuses they are presenting don't add up any more than if they wrote a VST -> VST/RE Reason wrapper that ran in a seperate process anyway.

We are listening to feedback of course but this quote has me a bit confused. What are the technical excuses and how do they don't add up? There are many advantages that are completely user focused and there are some technical advantages that are unprecedented in plug-in technology, and it's not just us saying that to look good. To quote a forum post from Chris Randall of Audio Damage:

"There is no feasible way to wrap these Re devices; they are much more advanced than VST, AAX, and AU; the technology is absolute bleeding edge, as far as what we work with goes. (More future-proofing here.) "

I've mentioned some tech things but feel free to ask more about it or let us know what you think are excuses. I'm not much for just defending ourselves but I'd love to get some more in-depth feedback and, if you want, answer some questions.

[liquidsound]

How many VST plugins do you think there were when VST was launched?

You're ignoring the point that there are many, many permutations of nearly every kind of plugin available in VST world now, so this is the reasoning behind the Props developing yet another format to add to...

VST
AU
RTAS
TDM
AAX
LADSPA

..., which leads to the conclusion that the decision was 100% commercial, and 0% customer (as if that ever actually happens) or tech focussed. The technical excuses they are presenting don't add up any more than if they wrote a VST -> VST/RE Reason wrapper that ran in a seperate process anyway.

Now if there was an RE -> VST wrapper then all of this talk of investment being tied to Reason would end. Maybe that's an idea.

RE is not going to be a new format. It isn't . It's a reason format. Don't get confused.
It's not for us but for them. We can use it but you must invest in them and that's it.
You get it?

[captain caveman]

..., which leads to the conclusion that the decision was 100% commercial, and 0% customer (as if that ever actually happens) or tech focussed. The technical excuses they are presenting don't add up any more than if they wrote a VST -> VST/RE Reason wrapper that ran in a seperate process anyway.

We are listening to feedback of course but this quote has me a bit confused. What are the technical excuses and how do they don't add up? There are many advantages that are completely user focused and there are some technical advantages that are unprecedented in plug-in technology, and it's not just us saying that to look good. To quote a forum post from Chris Randall of Audio Damage:

"There is no feasible way to wrap these Re devices; they are much more advanced than VST, AAX, and AU; the technology is absolute bleeding edge, as far as what we work with goes. (More future-proofing here.) "

I've mentioned some tech things but feel free to ask more about it or let us know what you think are excuses. I'm not much for just defending ourselves but I'd love to get some more in-depth feedback and, if you want, answer some questions.

Thanks, I'd like to ask how this plugin format is so special and different when it only takes a "few hours" to port from VST (from previous blurb)? Surely that has Wrapper written all over it?

And what advantages does this have over you guys writing a VST -> Reason API wrapper? A wrapper which would ensure that plugins that work today, work FOREVER (or as long as Props exist)?

[eXode]

Thanks, I'd like to ask how this plugin format is so special and different when it only takes a "few hours" to port from VST (from previous blurb)? Surely that has Wrapper written all over it?

And what advantages does this have over you guys writing a VST -> Reason API wrapper? A wrapper which would ensure that plugins that work today, work FOREVER (or as long as Props exist)? :D

That is the simplest question of all to answer:

Because Rack Extensions fit in the Reason rack. Other plugins don't. :lol:

[headquest]

Thanks, I'd like to ask how this plugin format is so special and different when it only takes a "few hours" to port from VST (from previous blurb)? Surely that has Wrapper written all over it?

It doesn't take the 15 minutes Ernst mentioned in his promo spiel - that turned out to be just more blah-blah-BS.

To quote the same Chris Randall that Anosou quoted, but from a different post (...!...):

I'd just like to mention that the open source exporter plug-in we are supposed to use to create 3D assets for this SDK is broken, at least with respect to my 3D program of choice. I had 3 days to sort this out, and it was either use the assets provided in the SDK or spend several thousand dollars on a new 3D suite and learn how to use it. I chose the former, in the hopes that the Collada plug-in gets fixed soon.

So, for now, Rough Rider is gonna be a little ugly. If that offends anyone, my apologies. I think it should be readily apparent that I do know a thing or two about user interface design, having done it professionally for some time now. We're trying to make the best of a very difficult situation here. If that warrants a "meh," then so be it.