Piano Sample Libraries - pedal, sympathetic resonance etc. in 2012...

Sampler and Sampling discussion (techniques, tips and tricks, etc.)
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Lode_Runner wrote:The reason I felt that a machine would do a better job than fingers for the sound of the hammer striking the string? When you're working with as many as 25 velocity layers, I think that it would be very difficult to accurately physically play a key at 25 different velocities with human touch.
Yes, it is difficult, definitely... with no definite answer. It's something of a compromise either way: On the one hand, a robot playing the key doesn't sound right to me, but it has more accurate velocity control; on the other hand, a human playing the key has the right touch but the velocity control is not so accurate.

For me, a big problem with even the best computer controlled robotic actions is that nothing actually strikes the key. This leaves staccato (and other articulations where the finger strikes from a distance) lacking in realism.

If we had unlimited time and unlimited hard-drive space, we'd have a human playing the samples and during the sampling sessions, record everything in 100 velocity layers. For that, we'd choose 16 for the end product.

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Lode_Runner wrote:
P.T. wrote:What, exactly is the 'noise of the finger hitting the key' and how would the audience in a real situation hear such a thing?

I think the sampling world is going insane in a misguided and unrealistic effort to be more realistic.

It's like adding finger squeak noises to guitar libraries.
In real playing these noises usually only happen when the player moves position.
When the noises are added to a sample library they just happen randomly, or worse, every time the note that the squeak is baked into is played.

This is not realistic.
It is increasing the phoniness.
If you are sitting in the audience in a concert hall listening to a piano performance, you wouldn't hear the finger touching the key. If you are sitting in front of a piano playing it yourself, you would hear these sounds.

For a piano sample library designed for live performance, it might be best to leave the sound of the finger hitting the key to the actual sound of the keyboardist touching the keys on their actual keyboard (assuming a wooden keys keyboard - this wouldn't sound the same on plastic keys), and not include it in the samples. However, for a sample library that is designed for recording, it can be good to be able to replicate these artifacts where these would be picked up by microphones that are placed close the player's perspective.

Imperfect Samples allows you to mix those sounds in or leave them out as you please, so it gives the best of both worlds.

I agree with you about the addition of random finger squeak noises to sampled guitars. In all honesty, speaking as a guitarist, I'd usually be doing all I could to not have those sounds in my recordings anyway.
Precisely.

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Douglas Whates wrote: If we had unlimited time and unlimited hard-drive space, we'd have a human playing the samples and during the sampling sessions, record everything in 100 velocity layers. For that, we'd choose 16 for the end product.
Or 127 velocity layers. The computers of today mightn't be able to handle that many, but who knows in five years time you might be able to throw in those extra velocity layers and release it as a new version without having to go back to the recording studio.

All the best with the project. Can't wait to hear the end product.

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Lode_Runner wrote:
Douglas Whates wrote: If we had unlimited time and unlimited hard-drive space, we'd have a human playing the samples and during the sampling sessions, record everything in 100 velocity layers. For that, we'd choose 16 for the end product.
Or 127 velocity layers. The computers of today mightn't be able to handle that many, but who knows in five years time you might be able to throw in those extra velocity layers and release it as a new version without having to go back to the recording studio.

All the best with the project. Can't wait to hear the end product.
Ha ha, yes! And at that point maybe we can ship it on a Petabyte storage crystal.

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I for one have a weak spot for this piano.

http://zenvoid.org/audio/

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Really interesting topic!
I agree almost with everything has been written here; how can it be possible? :shock:
Every sound/instrument judgement is lost in subjectivity and in piano sounds the user's position plays a big role, I think. Not the position on the stage but his role in the music; the piano player recognizes every single nuance and knows the real presence and power of the instrument; he should keep nails very short but if it happens that he/she is a guitar player too that's not possible for the right hand :hihi: The producer or keyboard player know that this nuances do nothing to the final recording and don't really care; they use to listen to the piano in a concert all or in a live jazz/pop gig; at the same time the pianist can't be inspired playing such cold sampled instrument and lend toward an acoustic recording that make him happy while the engineer get crazy trying to cancel the awful 'noises' that pianist like so much but reduce power and clarity into the mix. The keyboard player gets a little confused but doesn't care very much, if it works live or cuts in the mix is ok.. argh.. :cry:
Today a lot of people (like myself) have to fulfill all positions thus they search for the best compromise related to their experience and the music they produce. The conclusion should be that if a piano library (modeled or sampled) is well recorded and engineered it will always find a place on the market.
I'm still not completely satisfied and one day I'll find the time to sample mine the way I like it.. maybe..
I thought to post an example explaining how I obtained the intro piano for my last production but I'll do an experiment in reverse engineering :D
I posted my last single in the music cafe forum; my goal has been to use a warm and present piano sound for the intro. Obviously I like it very much but I'm curios to know what do you think and how I have obtained it :roll:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=352536

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Douglas Whates wrote:Despite what the the fans of Pianoteq will try to tell you, it just doesn't sound like a real piano.
Oh yes. Yes it does. Very much so. Not to mention the actual behavior and response, which is where ALL sampled pianos fail.

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Don't listen to him, as he's an EVIL DRAGON!

All jokes aside, no one will have the same opinion, so I think that the modeled versus sampled piano argument should be left to the individual user to decide.

Of course, that is an opinion about opinions, but I'm sure that many people will agree with me.

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EvilDragon wrote:
Douglas Whates wrote:Despite what the the fans of Pianoteq will try to tell you, it just doesn't sound like a real piano.
Oh yes. Yes it does. Very much so. Not to mention the actual behavior and response, which is where ALL sampled pianos fail.
I'm amazes me that what I hear as fake and plasticky, you hear as realistic. Will you concede that it's even a little bit fake or a little bit plasticky, or are you all out convinced that Pianoteq sounds as a real piano?

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I cannot admit I hear anything "plasticky" in Pianoteq's sound, sorry. Older models might've sounded a bit "thin" (and version 2 I would admit sounded somewhat too metallish, lacking "woodness", yes), but Pianoteq 4... no, no sir, absoulutely nothing fake or plasticky about it. It breathes as it responds to whatever I throw at it. Not a SINGLE sample library I've tried (and I've tried a lot) does that. Add to that unrealistic pedalling and generally "stiff" sound of all sampled pianos (which is a byproduct of them being sampled instead of calculated in realtime)... I just feel more "at home" when playing Pianoteq. And not a single person I've played Pianoteq to ever noticed anything fake about the sound... They all bloody loved it (pros and laymans alike)!

I have a real piano at home as well. Pianoteq is the closest thing to it in the virtual world, and infinitely more flexible when recording anything is in question. Period, full stop, EOD as far as I'm concerned.

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synchronizer wrote:Of course, that is an opinion about opinions, but I'm sure that many people will agree with me.
Indeed.

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EvilDragon wrote:I cannot admit I hear anything "plasticky" in Pianoteq's sound, sorry. Older models might've sounded a bit "thin" (and version 2 I would admit sounded somewhat too metallish, lacking "woodness", yes), but Pianoteq 4... no, no sir, absoulutely nothing fake or plasticky about it. It breathes as it responds to whatever I throw at it. Not a SINGLE sample library I've tried (and I've tried a lot) does that. Add to that unrealistic pedalling and generally "stiff" sound of all sampled pianos (which is a byproduct of them being sampled instead of calculated in realtime)... I just feel more "at home" when playing Pianoteq. And not a single person I've played Pianoteq to ever noticed anything fake about the sound... They all bloody loved it (pros and laymans alike)!

I have a real piano at home as well. Pianoteq is the closest thing to it in the virtual world, and infinitely more flexible when recording anything is in question. Period, full stop, EOD as far as I'm concerned.
I can agree with what your saying when it comes to performance flexibility and responsiveness - many sample libraries are definitely highly lacking in that regards. There are so many chaotic variables involved that it is very difficult for a sampled instrument to accurately represent those infinite possibilities. However, I still must completely disagree with you about the sound of Pianoteq. It is end of discussion in that regard, as it's pointless to keep on going back and forward, me saying I think it sounds fake, you saying you think it sounds real. I think I am highly qualified to make a judgement call, and I imagine you are too. It's bizarre that we totally disagree, but there you have it.

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It's not bizarre, it's in the ear of the beholder. However it is interesting that nobody I played Pianoteq to ever complained about the sound in any way, and that was not a small amount of people too.

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