Just downloaded Reason 6.5 plus a couple of RE's from the shop...

[kmonkey]

I just wanted to say how much i hate blindfolded fanboyism and how sometimes it can be frustrating to ask something normal yet you are being mislead by blindfolded people (i do symphatize with new users which never had any previous experience with music software).

I do understand that not all people using Reason are stupid or fanboys or anything alike! Just like with everything else. Let it be clear (beside that there is a good chance that i'll buy it some day ) that it was related to fanboyism.

Btw Reason fans aren't only ones which do that. So..i just wanted to make it clear because i don't want to be attacked by normal people which use Reason.

[v1o]

So preferring to work in Reason makes you a fanboy? What DAW are you using? I'm sure it's not perfect either, nothing is.

[memyselfandus]

You'll never see omnisphere, kontakt, alchemy, reaktor etc. in RE format. ... People in PH forum claiming "we finally have plugins in Reason" are simply ignoring what real plugins are. By the way REs are nice.

Camel Audio have said (in their thread about RE) that they would love to port Alchemy, but that the technology restricitions imposed by Popellerhead just don't make it possible at the moment....

When further asked if they would port their simpler plugs - CamelPhat and/or CamelSpace - they responded saying :

its not currently possible to port phat and space to RE with full functionality intact either.... it would require substantial recoding to work around the current restrictions, which is something we'd prefer to avoid

But there's a clear indication from them that they would love to put their stuff out in RE format if the Propellerhead technology catches up enough to make it possible.

so no BFD type RE? no Zebra RE?

[myrna]

The problem with RE starts when you claim it is a plugin. It isn't. PH say "you asked for vst support, we finally give you RE". Well, actually we asked for vst support, that is something completely different from RE. Infact I don't even consider RE a plugin format. Unless you think EXS24, MaxforLive, Operator and such things are plugins. RE is "third party reason racks". On the contrary, VST is like MIDI: a standard. That's what we wanted, not RE. You can call it "plugin" if you like, but it isn't. VST is the only standard plugin system (infact every instrument and effect out there is a VST one. The ones not made in VST are derivative forms for Protools or Apple). Musicians need unity, not dozens of different "this is much better than vst" variations. Guess if every nation had its own particular "standard" for music notation, for instance... what a mess for musicians...

[Amberience]

Yeah. VST and midi are standards. That's why all VST's inter-connect with each other, and midi gear never needs calibrating.

Sorry... but VST and midi, whilst widely used, are not standards. The reason being that they are implemented in different ways, for different purposes, using different parts of the specifications.

That's why you end up with VST2.3, 2.4, and 3 - 3 not being widely supported. That's also why you end up with different octave numbering in each host... because there isn't a standard for this stuff. Roland had one way to do it, Yamaha another... etc... they may be called standards, but they're both so poorly defined that they may as well be called nonstandard!

RE's are plugins insofar as developers can now develop plugins for the Reason platform; just like VST, just like RTAS, just like Audiounit. Claiming they don't count as plugins because they are only useable in one host is missing the point entirely.

[v1o]

Midi is even more shiite VST/AU is. Hopefully OSC will become an industry standard.

[myrna]

Yeah. VST and midi are standards. That's why all VST's inter-connect with each other, and midi gear never needs calibrating.

Sorry... but VST and midi, whilst widely used, are not standards. The reason being that they are implemented in different ways, for different purposes, using different parts of the specifications.

That's why you end up with VST2.3, 2.4, and 3 - 3 not being widely supported. That's also why you end up with different octave numbering in each host... because there isn't a standard for this stuff. Roland had one way to do it, Yamaha another... etc... they may be called standards, but they're both so poorly defined that they may as well be called nonstandard!

RE's are plugins insofar as developers can now develop plugins for the Reason platform; just like VST, just like RTAS, just like Audiounit. Claiming they don't count as plugins because they are only useable in one host is missing the point entirely.

Well, when I was young and there was no vst but only hardware gear, MIDI was a standard. I don't know nowadays... but i have always controlled different gear (yamaha, roland, korg etc.) linked together with standard midi cables, everywhere. That is the same for vst: i could play my vsts on every platform and DAW in every part of the world. That is what I call "standard". So it is for music notation: it does not matter if the one who reads my score is american, indian, chinese etc. The notes are those and the rules the same everywhere. FYI i am on Logic Pro, though... playing AU. But not for choice, of course. It is just an Apple matter ("we are different" and all that bullshit). I consider VST the real standard: standard is when you can choose WHERE to use the SAME thing: playing it in different contests, same behaviour. That is a "standard" for me. Otherwise it isn't. Regarding MIDI and VST issues: i don't think "standard" means "perfection". Nothing is perferct, as far as I know.

[headquest]

Midi is even more shiite VST/AU is. Hopefully OSC will become an industry standard.

If it does you can be pretty sure Propellerhead won't support it. They only like supporting their own stuff, because everyone else does it wrong.

"Audio recording done right"...
"This is how plugins should be done..."
"we've looked at other copy protection and come up with a way that's better..."
etc etc.

Nothing wrong with that of course, but ... if you are interested in standards there will always be some compromise, and Propellerhead aren't interested in playing well with others. Their way is, for them, best.

[myrna]

"audio recording done right"... but simply not enough. Infact the hyperstable rock solid Record simply disappeared from the market after two years due to no-vst supporting. And RE is not a plugin, because even the same VST instruments and effects are dfferent when made in RE format (because of the modular thing). Never heard about different behaviours of Kontakt or Omnisphere depending on the fact they are played under AU or VST... Besides, if you want the SAME thing you have to pay it twice. If it was a plugin it would be unfair. But luckely it isn't: RE is nice for reason users, who can play with new sounds and effects. Only, don't call it "plugin". Call it "third party racks for Reason".

[CT]

The problem with RE starts when you claim it is a plugin. It isn't. PH say "you asked for vst support, we finally give you RE". Well, actually we asked for vst support, that is something completely different from RE. Infact I don't even consider RE a plugin format. Unless you think EXS24, MaxforLive, Operator and such things are plugins. RE is "third party reason racks". On the contrary, VST is like MIDI: a standard. That's what we wanted, not RE. You can call it "plugin" if you like, but it isn't. VST is the only standard plugin system (infact every instrument and effect out there is a VST one. The ones not made in VST are derivative forms for Protools or Apple). Musicians need unity, not dozens of different "this is much better than vst" variations. Guess if every nation had its own particular "standard" for music notation, for instance... what a mess for musicians...

Well its not the same as EXS24, Operator etc. There are a few fundamental differences. Firstly, most of those others you mentioned were developed either in-house or with the close cooperation and contracted to the likes of AAS, but to a specification defined by, fo example, Ableton. M4L I would regard as a bit different, and there is no doubt that it is definitely a "plugin", but it was still developed through direct cooperation between Cycling 74 and Ableton.
Then there's a difference in the choice of how one can buy them. For example, you either get (don't know if its still sold) Logic Express with none of these instruments, or you get Logic Pro with all of them, you can't choose just EXS24 and not buy ultrabeat. With Ableton its a bit different, but the price disparity between buying single instruments and the suite is plain ridiculous, so again there's a clear bias towards encouraging customers to buy the suite.
RE on the other hand, is open in that sense, and PH are not gonna tell the various developers what they should code. Its up to the developers to decide, and also to decide the price. I think this is the most important difference between the aforementioned built-in devices and RE. Its definitely not as ubiquitious a standard as vst, but it is a plugin standard nevertheless. Thats kinda like saying a mac is not a PC. Well, mine is definitely not for public use. It is very much a personal computer.

EDIT: Just to make mysekf clear, in case my statement is taken too literally, some computers, like those in university computer labs and internet cafes, whether osx or windows based, are meant for public use. But they are still personal computers.

[eXode]

And then there's also Reason Essentials as well. If you don't want the full package Reason 6.5 brings but still want to be able to use RE's for specific needs.

[kae]

And then there's also Reason Essentials as well. If you don't want the full package Reason 6.5 brings but still want to be able to use RE's for specific needs.

As mentioned earlier, Essential looks like pretty good value for the money. I don't care that much for most of the devices that are missing in Essential, never liked Thor for instance. Can then fill up the rack with a few good RE's instead, RE's that one would most probably buy despite owning the full version.

I'm pretty sure that by the end of the year the shop will be filled up with all kind of exciting devices. A lot of cheap & free ones too I think. Will be a lot of fun to mess with all the crazy things I think wil come. I'm buying Essential for that reason. I could never use Reason as my main DAW though. After adding 5 devices and wiring them it I think it's a total mess.

[eXode]

And then there's also Reason Essentials as well. If you don't want the full package Reason 6.5 brings but still want to be able to use RE's for specific needs.

As mentioned earlier, Essential looks like pretty good value for the money. I don't care that much for most of the devices that are missing in Essential, never liked Thor for instance. Can then fill up the rack with a few good RE's instead, RE's that one would most probably buy despite owning the full version.

Yeah, I think that Essentials is a decent package if you want to just record some tracks. For an example if you're a singer/songwriter. The provided stuff is decent enough for laying out some ideas, and if you want to add an expensive FET, Trident A-Range and reverb to your sound you can do that! ;)

[kmonkey]

So preferring to work in Reason makes you a fanboy? What DAW are you using? I'm sure it's not perfect either, nothing is.

No i didn't said that! Where did i said that? Didn't i make it clear that i don't think everyone using reason is fanboy? Read what i said again please. And that i don't want to be attacked by normal people which use Reason?

Btw i use FL Studio, Ableton Live 8 and Cubase (i prefer to do it that way because each one have something which i need sometimes because just like you said - nothing is perfect). By using three makes me a fanboy alergic of anything just kidding..

Kind regards

[EnochLight]

Ugh... fanboys from both sides, indeed. This has been quite an interesting read, and yet it bares reminding - the OP simply made a positive post on his/her positive experience with installing Reason 6.5 and Rack Extensions. It didn't take but a few posts on the very first page for fanboys to kick in with their usual banter.

Still, we've read a lot of good information from various people. That's got to count for something!