Just downloaded Reason 6.5 plus a couple of RE's from the shop...

[drez]

Funny thing is, if Propellerhead *did* introduce VST support in (say) Reason 8.5, all the people who are currently anti-VST will be saying "WOW!! AWESOME!! Propellerheads are just freaking AMAZING!! THANK YOU!!" ... and stuff like that.

Some people just like whatever Propellerhead do, and that's fine.

For my part, while you people were debating how much you love or hate VST, I've been playing around with Arturia's Minimoog synth - a $229 VST that they just gave away for free!! Funny thing is that having used Reason for so many years I've generally not tried that many VST alternatives. But trying this today I'm thinking ... wow - this really is great. The sound it makes is way better than any of the synths in Reason, for sure. And <shock horror> it hasn't caused my laptop to have BSOD a single time yet

That really is an awesome synth. Used with Live rewired with Reason, you surely wouldn't have much more to complain about....

or would you?

[myrna]

ghettosynths wrote: Sure, there are some lightweights in there. But some of the tools really fill some gaps in reason

"gaps"? Now Reason has "gaps"?! Wasn't it the most complete-everythingyoneed musc software ever?!

[puzzlefactory]

Funny thing is, if Propellerhead *did* introduce VST support in (say) Reason 8.5, all the people who are currently anti-VST will be saying "WOW!! AWESOME!! Propellerheads are just freaking AMAZING!! THANK YOU!!" ... and stuff like that.

Some people just like whatever Propellerhead do, and that's fine.

I always find this to be a bit of a cop out arguments from the critics, "if you disagree with criticism you must be a fanboy and it's no use talking to you".


In regards to Re, when I've been on the Props forums over the past few years I've seen quite a few people suggest in the VST threads, about a completely integrated (into the rack) pluggin format, so this idea hasn't just come out of no where. The cabling is a big selling point for Reason so why not utilise it? That mixed with stability and (as I mentioned before) the anti piracy features are all good reasons to go this way than simply opening it up to VSTs.

[myrna]

It wasn't like that. People asked for vst support. Since it was always a "no no" we suggested at least some alternatives, warpers, internal rewire... something working for this gap. This was done since 2003. RE is not an answer to that. If it is, it's 9 years after and only after Record was discontinued.

[FaX]

Funny thing is, if Propellerhead *did* introduce VST support in (say) Reason 8.5, all the people who are currently anti-VST will be saying "WOW!! AWESOME!! Propellerheads are just freaking AMAZING!! THANK YOU!!" ... and stuff like that.

Some people just like whatever Propellerhead do, and that's fine.

For my part, while you people were debating how much you love or hate VST, I've been playing around with Arturia's Minimoog synth - a $229 VST that they just gave away for free!! Funny thing is that having used Reason for so many years I've generally not tried that many VST alternatives. But trying this today I'm thinking ... wow - this really is great. The sound it makes is way better than any of the synths in Reason, for sure. And <shock horror> it hasn't caused my laptop to have BSOD a single time yet

Actually having used Live & Logic (I now only use Reason + Hardware) I can honestly say I prefer this implementation - everything in the rack store just feels like and acts like a natural extension of what's there already, right down to CV/GATE/AUDIO Patching and using them in Combinators, to automation, and every other feature.
The Polysix is now available as a Rack Extension for Reason 6.5 and I know what you mean about sound - it's a simple synth but it just sounds fuller and has more presence without layering, eq-ing, compressing, effects and having it all wrapped up in a combinator as is, which is why I still prefer a lot of my hardware still, it tracks great in Feason, sounds superb when recorded and the effects, SSL and new SOFTUBE comps, reverb etc really are just the icing on the cake this end.
Lovely indeed .

[ghettosynth]

I downloaded all the RE's and have not been very impressed with any of them. It is nice to have some different effect in reason but, none worth buying. It's kinda like the suite bundle with ableton live. They are not bad buy I would never buy them. Much better off getting third party plugs that do a much better job.

hmm i think buffre and etch (wow only $49) and ABL are fab, as well as FET and TSAR.

the others i can live without.

We have similar tastes. I haven't used buffre with automation yet, I didn't find it that interesting with a mouse, but, it clearly needs "multitouch", e.g. a controller or automation.

I wasn't going to demo the FET, but I'll perhaps I'll reconsider.

[myrna]

Some people just like whatever Propellerhead do, and that's fine.

It's fineboysm

[FaX]

ghettosynths wrote: Sure, there are some lightweights in there. But some of the tools really fill some gaps in reason

"gaps"? Now Reason has "gaps"?! Wasn't it the most complete-everythingyoneed musc software ever?!

Ok, you're really starting to sound like that psychotic girlfriend who says she's moved on but is still emotionally involved with you in some super creepy semi-stalker like way.
I used Live from V1.0 to 5.0 and left it for various reasons, ditto Logic - I don't spend my life making anti Live and Logic posts in threads about those two hosts. Quite frankly I've got better things to do and if people enjoy using them all the more power to them for making the most of it all.
How abouts you cut the emotional apron strings or stop flogging a dead horse because baby, Reason probably wasn't that into you in the first place.

[drez]

Ok, you're really starting to sound like that psychotic girlfriend who says she's moved on but is still emotionally involved with you in some super creepy semi-stalker like way.

I had one of those years ago. After I escaped our relationship, she stole my garage door opener so she could come and check my answering machine while I was gone. One night all the sudden the light came on in the bedroom. There she was...it was like a horror flick. I had to literally toss her outside. I told her she better take off because I'm dialing the cops right now.

So what does she do? Oh...she leaves...and procedes to drive through my neighbors fence. They picked her up a couple blocks away parked in somebody's yard. That girl was flatout nuts.

So yeah, i can honestly say, this debate is starting to feel just like that.

[whyterabbyt]

I call "VST" every virtual instrument/effect. Because every virtual instrument must be VST. Never heard of "AU" only plugins. Usually every plugin is a VST. Then they can even make an AU/RTAS/whatsoever version for the Apple or Protools market. But the only and real stanrdard is VST as far as I know. If a plugin can work only in one single DAW or OS (see AU/RTAS), for me it is not a standard. Let alone RE.

mobile goalposts.

[ghettosynth]

ghettosynths wrote: Sure, there are some lightweights in there. But some of the tools really fill some gaps in reason

"gaps"? Now Reason has "gaps"?! Wasn't it the most complete-everythingyoneed musc software ever?!

Please don't assume that I'm a fanboi. If you've read what "I'VE" said about Reason you would know that I like the program for reasons other than how its effects and synths sound. Yes, Reason has gaps, it still does; the current crop of REs does not fill them all.

To my ears, RV7000 is weak and I thought as much on day one. It's ok for certain kinds of effects where you can filter the tail to calm down the artifacts, but I don't find it that convincing as a main reverb. Also, as I said previously, it's challenging to get an authentic 303 out of thor. The EQs are dated in appearance and flexibility, the mixers are, as has been said, either not enough, or too much.

I switched to reason because Cubase wasn't stable for even a single session, I switched to Live because Reason required too much effort to get certain high quality sounds that my ear is sensitive to, and also, because the rack actually becomes a hindrance to changing complex settings; you end up adopting workflow habits like inserting dummy effects when you want to reroute, just so that you don't have to go find the i/o for the thing that you are changing. Live is much easier for this type of thing. I still prefer Reason for certain activities because it's fun and inspiring, not because it's everything that I need.

The main reverb limitation could largely be overcome by rewire as I'm almost always using it as a send effect, but this hampers immediacy. I would say, in fact, that as far as mixing and reverb are concerned, using Reason rewired to Reaper is probably a cpu-efficient, cost-effective, and reasonably easy to use solution, it's just not as immediate. Because I don't use Reason for everything, I'm not in the camp where I need to duplicate my entire working environment in Reason. I use Reason for its strengths.

I really enjoyed playing around last night with ABL2 and the cheap Softtube reverb. If $100 worth of plugins inspires me for a few evenings then it's worth it to me. I won't get anything back from a dinner and a movie and it will cost about as much. Sure, I'd like to be able to sell what I don't use, but, the main effect of this is that it will simply limit my spontaneity. I'm far less likely to buy on impulse knowing that I can't sell. This is true even though the actual loss would be minimal. See prospect theory, which says that we behave based on perceived gains and losses rather than the final outcome, and also, that we tend to overvalue small losses.

Given that the environment is already in place, I think that Props are missing a golden opportunity. I'd easily spend $3.99 to rent the softtube reverb for say a week. I don't really want to own all of these plugins, but I might want to use one temporarily for a particular track. When you loaded a track with a plugin that you don't own it could ask you if you'd like to rent it, and simply silence the plugin if you choose not to.

And/or, potentially the model could support a menu of three part tariffs where you allow users to subscribe for a fixed monthly fee that allows the use of X plugins as part of your fee but charges you an additional fee to use more during the month. You could have different levels of subscription with different features and price points to suit the different market segments.

[xh3rv]

The VST and AU formats primarily define connectivity in a host environment, and I gather pretty similarly - although I'm sure there's plenty of nuance, lowest common denominator of feature sets should be adequate for streamlining development. If I understand correctly AU integrates slightly more packaging according to OS X's core services for audio, midi, components, etc. The actual DSP code should be more or less format independent here, but rather more about processor architecture. GUI code I'm assuming is similar within VST vs. AU on OS X as well. I would imagine the syntax is nearly identical when bridging from segments of VST/AU-specific code to segments universal code, so it's reasonable to streamline source code such that VST/AU differences show up minimally.

Just drawing on assumptions from what devs are saying, it's a very different story with REs. Connectivity I'm sure is quite nuanced and structurally different in Reason - no MIDI for one thing, and the modularity I think implies some dynamic structures that may require some more advanced computation than VST/AU would assume.

REs are also future-proofed. Apparently the code is independent of processor architecture which is consequential - I guess I wonder if there's been some way the RE SDK introduces some congruent conventions, or how some relevant low level execution is defined. For GUI stuff Propellerheads are asking for 3d models. This will scale to different resolutions (funny enough I don't think Reason does this yet? ...) and different lighting; I think this could be done without 3d models (scalable vector graphics are straightforward, something like 2d textural shaders for lighting), but the next thing is maybe different perspectives.

Would be interested to know more about the technology in the SDK but it sounds like it's pretty lofty. If it truly does future-proof that really is a considerable factor for developers. Maybe it's also platform independent, and some iteration of iPads etc. are getting great software written for them now. It seems to be double-edged in terms of the $$$ issues and too early to tell, I'm sure. Still doesn't justify no crossgrades whatsoever IMHO

[Robert Randolph]

Steinberg?! He started it all. If it wasn't for Steinberg we had no vst, and no propellerhead, too. And not even KVR, i guess. Karl Steinberg is the real hero, together with Dave Smith. They don't need to do the best, they are the best. They created all this. We owe respect.

Poe's law coming into effect here.

That post is not even remotely close to correct. I suggest you study up on your daw history. Steinberg didn't 'start it all' in regards to anything except vst. Propellerhead existed 2 years before VST 1.0. They also derived almost nothing from steinberg software or minor innovations.

I call "VST" every virtual instrument/effect. Because every virtual instrument must be VST. Never heard of "AU" only plugins. Usually every plugin is a VST. Then they can even make an AU/RTAS/whatsoever version for the Apple or Protools market. But the only and real stanrdard is VST as far as I know. If a plugin can work only in one single DAW or OS (see AU/RTAS), for me it is not a standard. Let alone RE.

Not every virtual instrument is VST. There are a lot of au, rtas, dssi, ladspa, etc.. only plugins.

I'm not sure how you manage to make a definite statement, repeat it except now add in the word 'usually', then finally end it by stating that all of that is based on your own arbitrary notions of words that have concise definitions.

Your usage of the word 'standard' makes absolutely zero sense as well. VST doesn't completely and legally work on all music making platforms, only 2 of many. RTAS works on those same platforms, and RTAS also work(ed/s) in Digital Performer and Logic. So it would seem that RTAS is a standard by that definition as well. RE's work in Reason and Reason Essentials and mac/windows, so that fits too... That would also mean that LADSPA and DSSI are standards.

Who'd have thought we'd see the day, LADPSA is a standard, just like VST. Hot damn!

[myrna]

Let's say if one day I'll switch from DAW A to DAW B and want to transfer my songs, i just export the midis and arm the tracks with the same plugins. It's not that difficult. With Reason that's impossible, lacking both of vst support and midi out. For those who are content with its limitations, it is a very interesting music software. But I own very expensive plugins (omnisphere, pianoteq, kontakt etc.) and I don't like rewire. Just this, no psycho-stalking stories, apart two or three bans in the past LOL

[liquidsound]

If Propellerheads had included VST support it would have been a nightmare IMO.

They still potentially crash in Reason and this is why are sand-boxed according to them. RE ARE CRASHABLE (a new word? )