We have scales but why??

[jancivil]

What makes something musically pleasing to us is mostly a matter of our listening environment as we develop.

I don't know about your 'we'. You did that. I looked to new things out of curiosity.

I used to be really picky and eschewed most kinds of pepper when I was a kid. Later I got a taste for hot foods after I tried them. That came out of travel actually.

my father was a great fan of Art Pepper.

[NKF]

they are not laws.
Consonance and dissonance are not tangible and a matter of opinion.

in your post directly above what I quote, you characterized an interval, that is by ratio simpler, as less consonant.
what's the point there, an opinion about an interval. Before it was 'more salient', which is peculiar term for 'more pleasing I guess' which followed.

Are you having us on?

The way musicologists have constructed the harmonic series in order of how intervals sound natural and pleasing. The octave , then the 5th but in music, and studies have shown this to be the case, the third is considered more pleasing. The point is that given that the ear is supposed to be more sympathetic to simple ratios, this isn't quite the case for how can you account for the 3rd being more pleasant and in a tonal context necessary.

These are backed up by studies. Not as much as one would like but i think it doesn't take much effort to think about the canon and how the 3rd plays a much more important role.

[NKF]

This is the only post you need to know. It's math, it's physics, plain and simple.

It is simply mathematical ratios ...

they are not laws.
Consonance and dissonance are not tangible and a matter of opinion.

Not true. When wavelengths don't match up at all, sh*t sounds nasty, period. It won't be music, it will be noise. Sure, different music cultures prefer different intervals, some with more or less dissonance, but the intervals are still there and still based on wavelengths and their ratios.

Sure you could argue that nasty, irritating noise could be considered music to some ears, but then I'd leave you, so you could happily listen to the sound of fingernails on a blackboard.

Tuning to 440hz is completely arbitrary and culturally defined. Calling a note C instead of A, is arbitrary and culturally defined. Doesn't matter exactly what you tune to, it's all relative. An octave above an out of tune C, is another out of tune C, and the two together make a perfect octave, because that's physics, which is not defined by culture.

I don't find a tritone dissonant. Nor would many jazz players. I don't find a major 7th dissonant. It is a spectrum. There is no actual definition of what is and what isn't. Therefore they are not laws. Because they are governed by interpretation which is not bound by physics.

I don't see why expressing your view from a intentional point of ignorance is doing you any service. I listen to all sorts of music. So many late 19th and early 20th greats makes great use of dissonance that you consider noise. Their music has lasted. You not liking it is not my concern but you are 1 person with 1 set of ears. My opinion stated that the line between consonance and dissonance is personal, it is cultural, and it follows trends.

[whyterabbyt]

You clearly dont (sic) have a clue where Im (sic) coming from, whatever that you actually think that is.

It is quite clear where you are coming from. It is apparent that you believe that by acting like an a**hole, someone might mistake it for intelligence.

So, you've not actually got a clue where Im coming from, which was obviously going to be the case. Instead you're just resorting to a drive-by ad hominem attack instead of addressing any specific point. Always good to see hypocrisy in action.

I think the OP had a serious question and your response is to simply contradict and insult people who weren't talking to you. Is that really the role you see for yourself in this life?

If you're happy with someone making serious mistakes in answer to some OP's serious question, you go ahead and slap them on the back for it, then. Im not about to.

But I responded to one person who wasn't talking to me, not 'people', and what he said begged contradiction. I notice you're not addressing anyone else who contradicted him, though.

As for insulting people, I reserve that for people who start insulting me first.

Thanks for letting us know you're charging about on your little high horse though. Careful you dont fall off. Next time, just use your mute button, and piss off.

[whyterabbyt]

Not true. When wavelengths don't match up at all, sh*t sounds nasty, period. It won't be music, it will be noise.

how much do wavelengths match up when someone plays a drum kit, do you think?

[Trakstar]

no musical knowledge whatsoever

I don't wish to be rude, but I believe it is best to make certain of your facts before trying to advice newbies, who are likely to be even more confused by misleading posts.

No offence intended.

The whole sentence states "That I Had " no musical knowledge with no reference to anyone else concerning what began with a pair of turntables. I dont even think people class those as a musical instrument in and of themselves, but then there is the art of scartching

[skipscada]

Not true. When wavelengths don't match up at all, sh*t sounds nasty, period. It won't be music, it will be noise.

how much do wavelengths match up when someone plays a drum kit, do you think?

Hey, when someone writes "... period", you're not allowed to object. Period.

[skipscada]

the art of scartching

You're right, there's art in scartching. Not sure about scratching, though.

[whyterabbyt]

Not true. When wavelengths don't match up at all, sh*t sounds nasty, period. It won't be music, it will be noise.

how much do wavelengths match up when someone plays a drum kit, do you think?

Hey, when someone writes "... period", you're not allowed to object. Period.

[Trakstar]

The confusion arose with me because of the Laws of consonance and dissonance which pyhthagoras is meant to have written the supposed first musical scale with, the Diatonic scale.

Your reading has been insufficient per the subject matter I think. "the diatonic scale" per Pythagoras... Pythagoras is said to have sought principles of consonant vibration by divvying up string length on a 'monochord'. finding the frequency of vibration in inverse proportion to length. 2:1/1:2, 3:2/2:3.
Now one can construct a diatonic scale more or less by continuing to multiply 3/2; 9/4 (9:8 to put it in same octave {a tone}, etc. (1:1, 9:8, 81:64, 4:3, 3:2, 27:16, 243:128) It does not follow that he meant to write any such thing. at that time in history there is no evidence of any such thing. It's hard to show anything of the sort for quite some time after the quasi-legendary existence of Pythagoras. That bit cannot be resonabley attributed to that man, not even hardly.

Music was always understood to consist of Melody, harmony and rhythm. When you score music on a sheet you would always write the melodies on the treble clef and bass clef.

No, the concept of harmony is relatively novel in fact. During medieval times music was not understood in harmonic terms at all, and through much of the 'renaissance' period. It developed out of polyphony in contrapuntal practice, a plainsong and other lines to support it in church music for instance.

that's as far as europe. There is still no harmony as we speak of it in the highly developed Indian Classical Music, nor in the Maqams of Arabic music, nor in the Persian musics. Chinese traditional music, it its myriad forms, has not concerned itself with harmony.

Now though, people write music around such different methods of work you might as well throw the traditional view of music out of the window.

I'm sorry, that's just a complete non-sequitur, it doesn't even follow your other premises.

"the traditional view'. what traditional view? "out the window". towards what end?

I'm not here to just gainsay you. Not my intent to make you look bad. BUT I will advise you: the thing to do for you at this point is to step back and reflect. You're making assertions based in a poor understanding of things, and you have decided to step out with confidence like you got it. You don't got it. You are drawing conclusions out of bad premises. You ought to approach this from more humility and patience, you do.

I took the definition of music straight out of a dictionary so its not just me OK, and most of western musical ideas are based around whats been said above. Im still learning, and it would seem i have a lot of learning to do. I will admit, thanks for being a bit more advisable..I will indeed take time to reflect. Im not here to be king of the castle, but rather learn to add to my knowledge so that eventually one day I will be able to answer proper questions like this a lot more informatively. The traditional view I was taught in junior school and secondary(western of course) was of writing sheet music melodies, Like in various colleges we would create music in cubase with the piano roll and we would stick to melodies, harmonies and rhythms. If you pick up a dictionary and read the definition of music this is what I meant for the traditional (western) understanding of music. I live in the united kingdom and at this minute in time am only beginning to understand the Theory concerning how music began here, never mind far eastern cultures and musical scales, but i fully intend to get there eventually. Judging by your answers you seem to know a lot more on the subject so I would bet my hat that you have years of experience or have done a great deal of study. I mean, there is so much to learn on this kind of subject it can be quite mind boggling at times!!. I know when youre in a position where obviously you can answer these types of question on such a deep level that when you see answers like mine leading people astray with the same mistakes it would obviously move you to correct the mistakes. Im thinking youre also probably a lot more culturally diverse on the matter, music teacher perhaps??. I guess my traditional view of music spans not a great deal of time, and it only concerns the western view where I was taught. I will tell you this though, Im going to hit those musical history books hard and look into all these points. In far eastern culture I think they only use perfect 5ths, they have no Triad chords or above do they?? Time for some reading. Until next time, I shall hopefully be ready for the next round.
Trakstar
Ps- concerning Pythagoras.. a lot of people like to quote him as "Supposedly" being the man to write the first musical scale governed by "the laws of consonance and dissonance". Ive seen it used many times in music magazines where they start to explain major and Minor scales, as something to do with relating mathematics to wavelengths_ harmonic scales and so on using them as a way to decide which frequencies sounded the best together and which did not. Anyway, Im looking into it so please dont "correct" me again on this unless its absolutely necessary. Thanks for the advice..appreciated

[Trakstar]

the art of scartching

You're right, there's art in scartching. Not sure about scratching, though.

Yup , a new technique with the decks thats similar to "scratching" but doesnt exist because i made a dumb spelling mistake. Thanks for pointing that out, your powers of observation astound me.

[chj]

When wavelengths don't match up at all, sh*t sounds nasty, period. It won't be music, it will be noise. Sure, different music cultures prefer different intervals, some with more or less dissonance, but the intervals are still there and still based on wavelengths and their ratios.

Do you think people thousands of years ago knew about wavelengths?.

No, but they knew what sounded good and what didn't. And it sounded good because the physics behind it make pleasant sound, which is why ancient instruments still follow "modern" scale and intervals. Which is also why you don't have to know a thing about wavelengths to know when someone can't sing in tune.

Not true. When wavelengths don't match up at all, sh*t sounds nasty, period. It won't be music, it will be noise.

how much do wavelengths match up when someone plays a drum kit, do you think?

And how do you play a scale on a drum? My comment is within the topic of scales.

[chj]

When wavelengths don't match up at all, sh*t sounds nasty, period. It won't be music, it will be noise. Sure, different music cultures prefer different intervals, some with more or less dissonance, but the intervals are still there and still based on wavelengths and their ratios.

I don't find a tritone dissonant. Nor would many jazz players. I don't find a major 7th dissonant. It is a spectrum. There is no actual definition of what is and what isn't. Therefore they are not laws. Because they are governed by interpretation which is not bound by physics. .

My mistake, you're talking about what is considered consonant vs. dissonant, not necessarily "Why do we have scales." So, yes what one person considers consonant vs. dissonant will vary subjectively. But as far as scales and intervals go (like tritones and Major 7ths), they are based on wavelengths and laws of physics.

[skipscada]

the art of scartching

You're right, there's art in scartching. Not sure about scratching, though.

Yup , a new technique with the decks thats similar to "scratching" but doesnt exist because i made a dumb spelling mistake. Thanks for pointing that out, your powers of observation astound me. :-o :-o :-o

Oh come on, it was just a lighthearted comment based no the fact that the typo incidentally included the segment "art". I didn't mean to offend. If it offended you, perhaps you should take some inspiration from Vurt's excellent ideas on how to approach this forum as posted earlier in this thread. But I get the idea, you don't like comments on your spelling. Note taken.


Oh, and sure, some posters may have used excessive force when contesting your posts, but if you swallow your pride and try to understand their arguments, you may actually get something useful out of the discussion. What looks like nitpicking may in fact be the pointing out of subtle but important points.

[whyterabbyt]

And how do you play a scale on a drum?

well i actually said drums

http://www.tunadrum.com/drum-set-tuning-intervals

but some drums can indeed be tuned to scales

http://www.tonguedrum.com/

My comment is within the topic of scales.

So was mine. Not all scales are defined in consistent harmonic intervals in the first place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelog