Dominant 7th Substitutions
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- KVRist
- 50 posts since 26 Jun, 2005
In "The Complete Idiot's Guide To Music Theory" (that would be me) the author states "You can do diatonic substitution (using diminished chords a third above or below the dominant seventh)...". The example he gives is replacing G7 with Bdim or Edim. I understand why you can replace G with Em or Bdim. But why Edim for G7?
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- KVRAF
- 1585 posts since 13 Nov, 2005 from St. Paul
can you give the exact quote? that doesn't sound right to me. b diminished 7 is the same as d, f, and a-flat diminished 7, but is not the same as e-diminished 7 in function or notes at all.
Last edited by jopy on Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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- KVRAF
- 7837 posts since 20 Jan, 2008
Any dominant 7th chord can be substituted with any chord that contain the natural third and the b7 It does not have to be in that particular diatonic scale.
Yes you are allowed to color outside the lines.
G B D F - G7
D F A B - D minor6
C# F G# B - C#7
Etc
There are several less then conventional substitution options and methods dependent on circumstance and opportunity. In Jazz Theoretically, any chord can be substituted for any other chord as long as the new chord supports the melody, but in practice only a few options will sound musically and stylistically appropriate for a given song.
If you watch or listen to the great soloist pianists or even soloist jazz guitarists they'll often rewrite the harmonies to support an existing melody using chord coloration outside the key signature.
You'll hear things like this predominantly in jazz, gospel and folk more so then in blues, rock, pop. country. Although they do make an appearance now and then even in a simple song to give it a sense of longing or displacement.
Two legends that come to mind in the field of advanced substitution are_
Bill Evans and Thelonius Monk.
Yes you are allowed to color outside the lines.
G B D F - G7
D F A B - D minor6
C# F G# B - C#7
Etc
There are several less then conventional substitution options and methods dependent on circumstance and opportunity. In Jazz Theoretically, any chord can be substituted for any other chord as long as the new chord supports the melody, but in practice only a few options will sound musically and stylistically appropriate for a given song.
If you watch or listen to the great soloist pianists or even soloist jazz guitarists they'll often rewrite the harmonies to support an existing melody using chord coloration outside the key signature.
You'll hear things like this predominantly in jazz, gospel and folk more so then in blues, rock, pop. country. Although they do make an appearance now and then even in a simple song to give it a sense of longing or displacement.
Two legends that come to mind in the field of advanced substitution are_
Bill Evans and Thelonius Monk.
Dell Vostro i9 64GB Ram Windows 11 Pro, Cubase, Bitwig, Mixcraft Guitar Pod Go, Linntrument Nektar P1, Novation Launchpad
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- KVRist
- 102 posts since 6 Jun, 2012 from USA
i would say you can use any chord as a substitution. Some are more prevalent and happen more in certain styles of music. I do think the expression dominant substitution is a little lacking in that it implies you need a dominant or that a chord that leads to your I has to be V or a substitution of V. Basically the idea of chord functionality is fine for learning but in practice, it is silly.
They all tend to stem from say a certain motion used to approach a certain chord of import.
Example
The aug 6 chords that usually gop to V, well they started using those to approach the tonic. In jazz and pop. they call them triton substitutions
So
F4/3 : Db F G Bb
G6/4 : Db F Ab B
ital 6 : Db F B
Now say you take the motion of a diminished chord going to its dominant by lowering what would be the 9th making the dimished in 3rd inversion now a dominant chord. Now you could also resolve it so that root of the dim7 goes to the root of the dominant making it a triad instead of a dominant.
So inb practice, dim7 of F goes to dom7 of F which is C. Now if we use the altered voice leading you have a dim7 going to the tonic triad. THat would explain the edim chord even tho you would most likely get the chord in its 4/2 inversion.
There are also common tone dim7s that can work as a substitution. That would be a dim7 that shares a tone with the chord you are going to. Now this also explains the e dim7, you can now have c , db, eb, e, Gb,G(abb), Bb(Cbb) dim7 chords acting as common tone dim7 chords.
Other motions would be V going VI in a minor key but using the augmented varient.
So you now have B D# F## -> C and of course you can sue any enharmonic equivalent in any inversion.
You can use the dim7 in 3rd inversion that goes a step down to V but like the dim7 voice leading above, well in this case the f which is the 3rd goes to G so you have a triad.
So applied to C tonic, Db F G Bb which is basically the french 4/3 without the raised 3rd.
There is also the common tone Augmented motion which is just a aug 6 chord built on the chord it resolves to so say for C
G6/4 : C, Eb F# Ab
F4/3 : C D F# Ab
Ital6 C Eb Ab
and all their inversions.
So basically the idea is you find a certain motion that has already been established going to any major chord, and you can use that but instead of using it for its intended chord say V in many of these examples , you are using it out of context to I.
There are endless variants but they all come from a place where you just take a normal thing , and change something and as you increase the things you change, more options open up and the possibilities sort of expand exponentially.
I do think that it is something that is easier to understand when you see how harmony evolved and sort of see how people started using things out of context and you see how these substitutions make sense and were not random. Of course i think this is a weakness in alot of jazz theory in that it doesn't really cover the 200 years before so you dont' reallty see when why and where these things happened.
They all tend to stem from say a certain motion used to approach a certain chord of import.
Example
The aug 6 chords that usually gop to V, well they started using those to approach the tonic. In jazz and pop. they call them triton substitutions
So
F4/3 : Db F G Bb
G6/4 : Db F Ab B
ital 6 : Db F B
Now say you take the motion of a diminished chord going to its dominant by lowering what would be the 9th making the dimished in 3rd inversion now a dominant chord. Now you could also resolve it so that root of the dim7 goes to the root of the dominant making it a triad instead of a dominant.
So inb practice, dim7 of F goes to dom7 of F which is C. Now if we use the altered voice leading you have a dim7 going to the tonic triad. THat would explain the edim chord even tho you would most likely get the chord in its 4/2 inversion.
There are also common tone dim7s that can work as a substitution. That would be a dim7 that shares a tone with the chord you are going to. Now this also explains the e dim7, you can now have c , db, eb, e, Gb,G(abb), Bb(Cbb) dim7 chords acting as common tone dim7 chords.
Other motions would be V going VI in a minor key but using the augmented varient.
So you now have B D# F## -> C and of course you can sue any enharmonic equivalent in any inversion.
You can use the dim7 in 3rd inversion that goes a step down to V but like the dim7 voice leading above, well in this case the f which is the 3rd goes to G so you have a triad.
So applied to C tonic, Db F G Bb which is basically the french 4/3 without the raised 3rd.
There is also the common tone Augmented motion which is just a aug 6 chord built on the chord it resolves to so say for C
G6/4 : C, Eb F# Ab
F4/3 : C D F# Ab
Ital6 C Eb Ab
and all their inversions.
So basically the idea is you find a certain motion that has already been established going to any major chord, and you can use that but instead of using it for its intended chord say V in many of these examples , you are using it out of context to I.
There are endless variants but they all come from a place where you just take a normal thing , and change something and as you increase the things you change, more options open up and the possibilities sort of expand exponentially.
I do think that it is something that is easier to understand when you see how harmony evolved and sort of see how people started using things out of context and you see how these substitutions make sense and were not random. Of course i think this is a weakness in alot of jazz theory in that it doesn't really cover the 200 years before so you dont' reallty see when why and where these things happened.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
I don't know why per se you'd reach for minor third off the thing you're substituting for.
there may be context that's missing.
what is missing in this kind of consideration about every time I see it here is 'what is the reason' for a substitution. it's just some information with no application. I 'have' this kind of harmony, but I have no idea what the writer is on about with that.
E G Bb for G B F? No clue. there could be a MELODIC reason for such a choice but that isn't evidenced. It may be conventional to the guy for some reason not in evidence here. Who knows.
there is a principle of 'substituting' a diminished seventh a semitone above a dom. 7th that makes obvious sense:
Ab B D F for G B [D] F, you have a G7b9, which is normative say for C minor as a V7.
But, and note well, as far as the practical, a lot of your obvious substitutions are just ways of renaming shit. in practice the piano player going for those four notes while the bassist has the G, it's s normative move, G7b9 and there's just not a lot of analysis or naming to be concerned with, it's a known thing.
I wouldn't conflate the augmented sixth for a tritone sub. necessarily. It can be found to be coincident with in certain analyses [french sixth], but as far as the ability to come up with a b5 sub, 'aug sixth' is not essential information.
G B Db F is the same thing as Db F Abb Cb in chromatic usage. They could both/either as easily as the other resolve to C, or to Gb. that's their usefulness, to open up the farthest reach chromatically by one choice.
Functionally aug sixth turned a subdominant into a stronger secondary dominant.
In C minor: [iv6] Ab C F into Ab C F# [iv^6]; moves to V7 by particular voice-leading: to G B [F or] G.
Coincident with the French sixth [eg., Ab C D F#] is the V7b5 of V (or bII7b5 of V) [eg., Ab C Ebb Gb]. But you don't have to have french sixth by theory to arrive at b5 sub., it's academic. You need to have the aug sixth to part-write stylistically in period practice as it is found. The reason for it is not per se the same reason as the other. I don't know if a jazz person needs the context of it to function in that style.
there may be context that's missing.
what is missing in this kind of consideration about every time I see it here is 'what is the reason' for a substitution. it's just some information with no application. I 'have' this kind of harmony, but I have no idea what the writer is on about with that.
E G Bb for G B F? No clue. there could be a MELODIC reason for such a choice but that isn't evidenced. It may be conventional to the guy for some reason not in evidence here. Who knows.
there is a principle of 'substituting' a diminished seventh a semitone above a dom. 7th that makes obvious sense:
Ab B D F for G B [D] F, you have a G7b9, which is normative say for C minor as a V7.
But, and note well, as far as the practical, a lot of your obvious substitutions are just ways of renaming shit. in practice the piano player going for those four notes while the bassist has the G, it's s normative move, G7b9 and there's just not a lot of analysis or naming to be concerned with, it's a known thing.
I wouldn't conflate the augmented sixth for a tritone sub. necessarily. It can be found to be coincident with in certain analyses [french sixth], but as far as the ability to come up with a b5 sub, 'aug sixth' is not essential information.
G B Db F is the same thing as Db F Abb Cb in chromatic usage. They could both/either as easily as the other resolve to C, or to Gb. that's their usefulness, to open up the farthest reach chromatically by one choice.
Functionally aug sixth turned a subdominant into a stronger secondary dominant.
In C minor: [iv6] Ab C F into Ab C F# [iv^6]; moves to V7 by particular voice-leading: to G B [F or] G.
Coincident with the French sixth [eg., Ab C D F#] is the V7b5 of V (or bII7b5 of V) [eg., Ab C Ebb Gb]. But you don't have to have french sixth by theory to arrive at b5 sub., it's academic. You need to have the aug sixth to part-write stylistically in period practice as it is found. The reason for it is not per se the same reason as the other. I don't know if a jazz person needs the context of it to function in that style.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 50 posts since 26 Jun, 2005
Thanks. Your explanation finally turned the lightbulb on for me.tapper mike wrote:Any dominant 7th chord can be substituted with any chord that contain the natural third and the b7 It does not have to be in that particular diatonic scale.
Yes you are allowed to color outside the lines.
G B D F - G7
D F A B - D minor6
C# F G# B - C#7
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- KVRist
- 102 posts since 6 Jun, 2012 from USA
But it happens in literature enough that it sets a precedent. And when it happens acting in the same way you might see in jazz, it is spelled as an aug6 chord which gives you an idea of how the composer was thinking. Jazz is not written which would explain the lack of formality in spelling. As you said, chords are all naming conventions. They make it easier to learn. you could not claim any chord has any function but it helps to explain how harmony evolved which in this case , the tritone substitution, it shows quite well how it evolved.jancivil wrote:
I wouldn't conflate the augmented sixth for a tritone sub. necessarily. It can be found to be coincident with in certain analyses [french sixth], but as far as the ability to come up with a b5 sub, 'aug sixth' is not essential information.
Coincident with the French sixth [eg., Ab C D F#] is the V7b5 of V (or bII7b5 of V) [eg., Ab C Ebb Gb]. But you don't have to have french sixth by theory to arrive at b5 sub., it's academic. You need to have the aug sixth to part-write stylistically in period practice as it is found. The reason for it is not per se the same reason as the other. I don't know if a jazz person needs the context of it to function in that style.
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- KVRAF
- 2217 posts since 15 Jul, 2003
that would be a tritone 'passing' substitution
nice catch
nice catch
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- KVRist
- 102 posts since 6 Jun, 2012 from USA
this is why theory gets annoying, Just calling something a name doesn't really give an explanation , not that one has to have one, on a certain sequence of chords. But for the purpose of learning, i think you have to either show passages where it happens or give somewhat an etymology of such substitutions and how they might have evolved from more simple harmony.
I think my explanation using the vii4/2 diminished giong to root V7, which happens alot explains the motion of a diminished chord going down a half step to a more stable triad based chord. And with the resolution of say Bb to C, the 3rd of dim7 chord, you now get a triad instead of a dominant, and using the concept of reinterpretation, how you would approach this dominant, you can now tread to any major triad including the tonic.
And that diminished chord has the E in it which also happens to be the root. In many ways it is the same as a tritone substitio which is an augmented chord in the subdominant key region, it should of gone to C7 but resolves to a more stable triad. Similarly, the e dim7 is a dominant to F but if you resolve it to its actual dominant of C7 using a voice leading that rids the chord of the 7, you get C, or the tonic.
I think my explanation using the vii4/2 diminished giong to root V7, which happens alot explains the motion of a diminished chord going down a half step to a more stable triad based chord. And with the resolution of say Bb to C, the 3rd of dim7 chord, you now get a triad instead of a dominant, and using the concept of reinterpretation, how you would approach this dominant, you can now tread to any major triad including the tonic.
And that diminished chord has the E in it which also happens to be the root. In many ways it is the same as a tritone substitio which is an augmented chord in the subdominant key region, it should of gone to C7 but resolves to a more stable triad. Similarly, the e dim7 is a dominant to F but if you resolve it to its actual dominant of C7 using a voice leading that rids the chord of the 7, you get C, or the tonic.
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- KVRAF
- 7837 posts since 20 Jan, 2008
Music is not science. It's part art part craft. There are several ways to arrive at harmonic motion that are non diatonic in nature yet do to the nature that chord progressions are not always static (the chord does not move to anything)One can introduce movement via more then one approach.
There are such things as passing chords. Passing chords can be either diatonic in nature or chromatic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_chord
There are such things as passing chords. Passing chords can be either diatonic in nature or chromatic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_chord
Dell Vostro i9 64GB Ram Windows 11 Pro, Cubase, Bitwig, Mixcraft Guitar Pod Go, Linntrument Nektar P1, Novation Launchpad
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
I have seen it spelled as such in original sheet music, music written by a show tune composer [eg., Richard Rodgers], for instance so yes that's true. But I did limit my remark to 'necessarily'. An Italian sixth has no resemblance to tritone sub in jazz for instance. I have made the point elsewhere per the background of this move in the French sixth.NKF wrote:But it happens in literature enough that it sets a precedent. And when it happens acting in the same way you might see in jazz, it is spelled as an aug6 chord which gives you an idea of how the composer was thinking.jancivil wrote:
I wouldn't conflate the augmented sixth for a tritone sub. necessarily.
My point here is only to say you can tell a jazzer to do a b5 sub without going into that history. I noticed it in a Mickey Baker book before I had harmony class.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
But why Edim for G7?
a meaningful thing to look at here, is *context of a tune*.[(I Got) Rhythm Changes]: Dm G7 Cm F7
some do: Dm Edim7 Cm F7
Abstracted information in a book, 'you substitute E dim (I didn't notice the 'dim. seventh' there in the first place) for G7' doesn't do this. As I read it, it seems like it says, this is per se a substitute for the V7 [and the OP's confusion follows]; if it supports the melody surely it is, if it got in the way of the melody it is not, necessarily. It depends.
b5 substitute for G7 is: Db F B G. Edim7 is E G Bb Db.
As per jazz style, the latter was done a lot during the 'swing' period, which as a principle was supplanted somewhat by the b5 sub. principle after bebop.
Here, in I Got Rhythm, the #ivdim7, E G Bb Db harmonizes Bb and gives a drive to ii, Cm. the changes are I vi ii V7, vi #ivdim7 ii V7, I.
'Rhythm Changes/substitution principle': you could extrapolate that move in the second phrase and glom it onto the first, but the choice in the first place harmonizes the melody and has a drive to the ii chord. The reason for making it a principle for jazz practice is all about the added drive, in order to propel improvisation. Clearly this has been done. But I never got the reasoning for 'substitute for V7'. I have seen it time and time again. It seems like a myth.
One could say it subs for V7 in the second phrase (I don't see it; V7 to ii?) but to stick it onto the first phrase as though a principle per se, well, it does not work for the tune. That reasoning for why [Edim7 for G7] seems flawed to me. If it does something in context it's useful.