Wow, Rack Extensions are expensive
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- KVRist
- 61 posts since 4 May, 2009
ChiTown24 wrote:No. It's not.xx JPRacer xx wrote:It's like games.
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- KVRAF
- 4329 posts since 26 Jun, 2004
Bait and switch on devs and customers alike.
I think Props likely have much better contract lawyers than any dev they are doing business with. I would think it is a "done deal". Devs are free to talk, they are not free to deal. Thats a good way to ensure that this last gasp didnt fail miserably. A contracted 'team' of 'RE Devs'. Who doesnt get excited hearing that?
Anyway, ChiTown I do question how much power the devs really do have in this situation. It might be exactly zero at this point.
Im just spitballin here though.
Since this all went down I have wondered if the Props were ever pushing for complete control. Like, a complete license for the app. Dev ports, and then its hands off and Props run with it. Then dev doesnt have to worry about sales to make their tiny cut. Props can handle the mess themselves.
Has any dev mentioned that kind of deal?
It almost makes more sense for everyone in a way.
A port time approaching zero is the only thing that really allows the current deal to make sense for the dev, to me.
And I still have no idea how it makes sense for a Reason user who also uses VSTs.
I think Props likely have much better contract lawyers than any dev they are doing business with. I would think it is a "done deal". Devs are free to talk, they are not free to deal. Thats a good way to ensure that this last gasp didnt fail miserably. A contracted 'team' of 'RE Devs'. Who doesnt get excited hearing that?
Anyway, ChiTown I do question how much power the devs really do have in this situation. It might be exactly zero at this point.
Im just spitballin here though.
Since this all went down I have wondered if the Props were ever pushing for complete control. Like, a complete license for the app. Dev ports, and then its hands off and Props run with it. Then dev doesnt have to worry about sales to make their tiny cut. Props can handle the mess themselves.
Has any dev mentioned that kind of deal?
It almost makes more sense for everyone in a way.
A port time approaching zero is the only thing that really allows the current deal to make sense for the dev, to me.
And I still have no idea how it makes sense for a Reason user who also uses VSTs.
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- KVRAF
- 5200 posts since 17 Aug, 2004
Look...to claim that it is not possible to ad something as trivial as "voucher" system or some kind of crossgrade functionality in to online shop is a bit insulting for human intelligence IMHO!Goseba wrote:I thought Props had indicated that at the moment it was just not possible with the current RE shop but in the future maybe.
Maybe the Props assumed people would sell their VST's versions to pay for the RE's so crossgrades would be irrelevent
And when it comes from company of Propellerhead calibre then certainly it's lame to.
I do this stuff on regular basis and IMHO doing voucher system to already running store when compared to something as doing SDK for developers is as making orange juice vs assembling protons and neurons.
..
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- KVRAF
- 2258 posts since 25 Jun, 2008 from Montreal, Canada
I think it is. Both are programs. The only difference is games have bigger dev team and budget.ChiTown24 wrote:No. It's not.xx JPRacer xx wrote:It's like games.
I've just got Max Payne 3 on both the 360 and PC. Same game, different platform, paid twice. It's not the same code but it's the same product, just like Rack Extension and vst have different code but it's the same product, more or less.
Same thing with HD-DVD and Bluray. Some Bluray have exactly the same VC-1 video track than the HD-DVD version. Paid twice.
I hate this model of paying more for different platform, but right now it is the way it is.
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- KVRAF
- 2258 posts since 25 Jun, 2008 from Montreal, Canada
I do that a lot. Sometime because the game come out on 360 1st. So I get the 360 version and then the PC version. Sometime it's because I have friends playing online on the 360 and others on PC.Kriminal wrote:Why did you buy the same game twice?
In total I have about 500 games (PC, 360 and PS3). I have maybe 30 titles of that that I have bought twice.
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- KVRAF
- 2973 posts since 10 Sep, 2003 from Karlskoga, Stockholm, Sweden
The way it is will always remain the way it is until you fight it. If you settle for what is, then that is what you will have - forever.
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- KVRAF
- 7489 posts since 6 Jul, 2004
The OP - and the topic - is bigger than just cross grades though. And it has nothing to do with developer time (that's for the developer to calculate, not the customer...)....
The issue of pricing in the grown-up world is to do with one thing only: market forces. In this specific case there are two aspects where market forces come into play:
1) the cost of an individual RE compared to an equivalent VST/etc
2) the overall cost of a full-featured system running Reason + "RE"s compared to other DAWs + VSTs.
Examining the first of these, when looking at the full advertised price of individual RE extension in the Prop Shop I see some that are a bargain, some that are about what I would expect, and some that are frankly a bit pricey. And when i look at the VST market I see the exact same thing.
However - with VST there are a number of advantages to factor in before you can make a legitimate comparison:
A) bundles. Propellerhead don't seem to be offering any bundles that compare with the sort of deals available when you buy VST plugs from the likes of Native Instruments (Komplete), Arturia (complete collection), Waves (all sorts of options) etc. Without bundles the RE extensions represent very poor comparable value for money.
B) by writing out retailers, Propellerhead have abolished the "Street Price" that is an important element in bringing down the cost of comparable products in the world of VST
C) resale value. RE has none because Propellerhead have excluded the option
D) transfer value - VST can be taken with you when you switch host.
While Propellerhead would have us believe that their approach is so much better for users, the bottom line is that when you compare Re against VST it represents very poor value for money.
2) The overall cost. Reason as a standalone product is in my view good value for money, and the price of admission easily stands up to comparison with other DAW software. However, when you add in the inflated cost of Re - caused entirely by the deliberate commercial restrictions imposed by the Propellerhead shop - then building a system based around Reason plus Re suddenly seems not so good as an overall investment when compared against, for example buying a VST host plus Komplete and one of the Waves bundles.
The overall quality of Reason as a host (bearing in mind all its other quite serious limitations such as no MIDI out, poor audio editing, poor format support, no video, no surround, etc etc) combined with the limited but costly expansion options ... add up to an system that just isn't really that good. People who kid themselves otherwise at this point are either being wilfully blinkered. or maybe just have quite limited musical ambitions compared to the majority of the creative people I know.
The issue of pricing in the grown-up world is to do with one thing only: market forces. In this specific case there are two aspects where market forces come into play:
1) the cost of an individual RE compared to an equivalent VST/etc
2) the overall cost of a full-featured system running Reason + "RE"s compared to other DAWs + VSTs.
Examining the first of these, when looking at the full advertised price of individual RE extension in the Prop Shop I see some that are a bargain, some that are about what I would expect, and some that are frankly a bit pricey. And when i look at the VST market I see the exact same thing.
However - with VST there are a number of advantages to factor in before you can make a legitimate comparison:
A) bundles. Propellerhead don't seem to be offering any bundles that compare with the sort of deals available when you buy VST plugs from the likes of Native Instruments (Komplete), Arturia (complete collection), Waves (all sorts of options) etc. Without bundles the RE extensions represent very poor comparable value for money.
B) by writing out retailers, Propellerhead have abolished the "Street Price" that is an important element in bringing down the cost of comparable products in the world of VST
C) resale value. RE has none because Propellerhead have excluded the option
D) transfer value - VST can be taken with you when you switch host.
While Propellerhead would have us believe that their approach is so much better for users, the bottom line is that when you compare Re against VST it represents very poor value for money.
2) The overall cost. Reason as a standalone product is in my view good value for money, and the price of admission easily stands up to comparison with other DAW software. However, when you add in the inflated cost of Re - caused entirely by the deliberate commercial restrictions imposed by the Propellerhead shop - then building a system based around Reason plus Re suddenly seems not so good as an overall investment when compared against, for example buying a VST host plus Komplete and one of the Waves bundles.
The overall quality of Reason as a host (bearing in mind all its other quite serious limitations such as no MIDI out, poor audio editing, poor format support, no video, no surround, etc etc) combined with the limited but costly expansion options ... add up to an system that just isn't really that good. People who kid themselves otherwise at this point are either being wilfully blinkered. or maybe just have quite limited musical ambitions compared to the majority of the creative people I know.
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- KVRAF
- 5573 posts since 30 May, 2006 from Hollow Earth
Well said.
ABEFLGMOPPRRST 
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afreshcupofjoe afreshcupofjoe https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=94815
- KVRAF
- 1838 posts since 17 Jan, 2006 from Portland, OR
Limited marketplace and Propellerhead take a 30% cut. Basic economics. That's really all there is to it. End thread.
"The Juno 60 was often incorrectly referred to as a synth. It is, in fact, a chorus unit with a synth attached." -PAK
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- KVRAF
- 2973 posts since 10 Sep, 2003 from Karlskoga, Stockholm, Sweden
or maybe just have quite limited musical ambitions compared to the majority of the creative people I know.
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- KVRAF
- 7489 posts since 6 Jul, 2004
Really? This needs explanation?Crackbaby wrote:or maybe just have quite limited musical ambitions compared to the majority of the creative people I know.
Musical ambitions (in this instance) = an interest in possibly being able to do one or more of the following in the future (not necessarily right now, hence "ambition"):
+ Use a hardware workstation/synth/drum machine/etc via MIDI
+ Score / sync music to picture (even if just a home movie)
+ Upload tracks directly to the internet, or at least export an MP3
+ Use audio formats such as 32 bit wav, FLAC, MP3, etc
+ Do detailed audio editing
+ Use a freeze function
+ Use latency type effects with full PDC to compensate
+ use professional contemporary orchestral samples such as VSO, Spitfire, LA Scoring Strings, etc
+ Use world music samples packs, etc
+ Include a harpsichord or early keyboard instrument (seriously - none available in Re or Refill)
+ Slice Beats/etc
+ Easily do simple timing corrections/adjustments (e.g. warp markers)
+ Use groove quantise on an audio track
+ Use track markers
+ Do larger projects including mixer bus groups
+ Do larger projects including track folders
+ Work with other musicians sharing notation
+ Use top en VST instruments such as Omnisphere, Alchemy, Iris, or anything remotely equivalent in Re format
+ Use top end VST effects such as Waves, Fabfilter, PSP, etc... or equivalent in Re format
...and so on. Most of the creative musicians I know are at least interested in trying one or more of the above at some time in the future, even if they don't currently need most of those features.
So let's see how the major music software platforms stack up:
+ Pro Tools: All of the above
+ Cubase: All of the above
+ Logic: All of the above
+ Digital Performer: All of the above
+ Sonar: All of the above
+ Samplitude: All of the above
+ Ableton Live: most of the above
+ FL Studio: most of the above
+ Studio One: most of the above
+ Reaper: most of the above
+ Reason: NONE OF THE ABOVE.
The quote you took was in the context of comparing value for money between Reason + Re vs. Another DAW + VST/etc plugs. I think it's pretty clear that any musician who has any aspiration to do any of the stuff I listed above will - if making a properly informed decision - see Reason is poor value for money in terms of what it offers.
Of course in future versions Reason may include some of the above features (though almost certainly not most of them...). But nobody knows if/when that would be, and there will of course be a further ongoing upgrade expense involved before Reason catches up as a DAW with the other players in these fairly basic areas.
Last edited by headquest on Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 7489 posts since 6 Jul, 2004
Totally agree. The same applies to bundles, etc.kmonkey wrote: Look...to claim that it is not possible to ad something as trivial as "voucher" system or some kind of crossgrade functionality in to online shop is a bit insulting for human intelligence IMHO!
And when it comes from company of Propellerhead calibre then certainly it's lame to.
I do this stuff on regular basis and IMHO doing voucher system to already running store when compared to something as doing SDK for developers is as making orange juice vs assembling protons and neurons.
..
Hop over to the PSP Audioware site, or Voxengo, and it's common practice and easy for even the smaller developers to offer a staged discount when you buy more than one product from them online. The more VSTs you add to your basket on those sites, the larger the discount offered. Simple, fair, and competitive.
Either Propellerhead have completely dropped the ball in terms of building a proper web store, or they are being deliberately greedy and cashing in on their captive market...
Either way ... major loss of respect.