preset free synthesisers

[JimmiG]

I design most of my sounds from scratch, however I still appreciate a synth with good presets. It shows what the synth can do (great when trying out a demo version), and they're great for learning that particular synth (by taking the preset apart). Without presets, it takes longer to get to know a new synth and use it to its full potential.

Guitars doesn't come with presets yet people somehow learn how to play them...


If you buy a CD player from Sony you don't expect Sony to send along a CD with music that you haven't chosen and that you don't want to pay for?
The problem isn't the five bucks those presets cost, the problem is that you pay for something you haven't chosen to pay for.

Guitars only come with one preset, called "guitar". Totally different from something like Zebra 2. Learning to "play" a synthesizer is a totally different thing than learing to "program" one. Only with really simple synths (Minimoog) are the two the same thing.

[vurt]

I dont think the amount of money paid to preset designers really makes a big dent in the overall product.

I've made presets for a handful of products for a few VST dev's and I can't imagine the money I received to even be a drop in the bucket once you spread that out over the amount of VST's sold.

multiply that by 10 preset designers, and you have about 10 drops in the bucket... chump change.

-dw

Exactly what i said. I dont think a company could sell a synth with no presets cheaper than with.

Maybe a dev could correct me, tho i doubt they want to reveal finances in public

yeah, sorry dave, did see the comment but was then distracted before replying.
;ike i said in the op, "i often wonder how much..." i wasnt sure, which is why i asked a question rather than stated anything as a fact.
i know from experience as ive done the odd beta test and some sound design here and there, as a "novice" wasnt sure if pro sound designers where taking a bigger pay rate? if the above is the case, as lotuzia also mentioned, maybe then the option of a preset free version at the same price?
would it be so difficult for the dev to remove the preset bank at source? as they would only have to do it once before distribution, then is it more difficult to do this or is it just a case of deleting the bank?

its not hatred of presets btw! as i keep stating (not aimed at either of the people quoted above) the majority of patches/presets are aimed at particular styles, not that i have any problem with those styles of music that are prsented in presets, just theyre not what i do. i also understand why the presets are aimed at these music styles, more synth users are making these musics, i know im a minority

thanks to the majority of you for keeping it civil, its nice to discuss things without bitching and fighting.

[vurt]

If you were one selling or even freely distributing your presets for others to use, and suggested the OP.

but im not and i did.

[Spitfire31]

Preset free versions would be most welcome and would hopefully encourage people to actually learn synthesis - after all, that's where all the fun is!

Begging your pardon, creating presets may be where all the fun is for a small minority of diehard tech heads. I didn't say nerds…

For the overwhelming majority, though, composing and playing music is where all the fun is!

Just try selling a s/w synth in meaningful numbers without good factory preset banks to show it off and satisfy the instant gratification crowds (to which I shamelessly claim allegiance)!

Granted, you'll sell a few to the above mentioned ner… er, tech heads. But where's the money in that, to enable you to continue developing and provide support?

/Joachim

[Gamma-UT]

would it be so difficult for the dev to remove the preset bank at source? as they would only have to do it once before distribution, then is it more difficult to do this or is it just a case of deleting the bank?

Technically, it's very easy. But the problem is not one of technical difficulty, it's how you assess the price. That's what a number of people are pointing out. To release the synth, the developer has to gather the presets anyway. It's a fixed cost, much like the development of the synth itself.

In selling the synth, the developer is amortising the cost of the synth across the customers who buy it and, with any luck, makes enough money to feed their family, pay bills etc. And they have to have a decent set of presets to attract the people who are going to demo the synth based on those presets. So, the question is: what is a fair discount on the factory presets to a user who doesn't want them, particularly as, in the development of the synth itself, they are probably a tiny fraction of the outlay (assuming the developer is costing their time at a reasonable and not just treating spare time as free)? And, how do you then deal with the people who then argue, having got the discount, that they should be entitled to the presets because "they don't cost anything to ship, do they"?

I'd pay more to get rid of fake wood panels and rack ears though.

[vurt]

Preset free versions would be most welcome and would hopefully encourage people to actually learn synthesis - after all, that's where all the fun is!

Begging your pardon, creating presets may be where all the fun is for a small minority of diehard tech heads. I didn't say nerds…

For the overwhelming majority, though, composing and playing music is where all the fun is!

Just try selling a s/w synth in meaningful numbers without good factory preset banks to show it off and satisfy the instant gratification crowds (to which I shamelessly claim allegiance)!

Granted, you'll sell a few to the above mentioned ner… er, tech heads. But where's the money in that, to enable you to continue developing and provide support?

/Joachim

no one is suggesting synths should come without presets at all, just the same synth without presets alongside the preset laden version. so both sides would get what they want

[vurt]

would it be so difficult for the dev to remove the preset bank at source? as they would only have to do it once before distribution, then is it more difficult to do this or is it just a case of deleting the bank?

Technically, it's very easy. But the problem is not one of technical difficulty, it's how you assess the price. That's what a number of people are pointing out. To release the synth, the developer has to gather the presets anyway. It's a fixed cost, much like the development of the synth itself.

In selling the synth, the developer is amortising the cost of the synth across the customers who buy it and, with any luck, makes enough money to feed their family, pay bills etc. And they have to have a decent set of presets to attract the people who are going to demo the synth based on those presets. So, the question is: what is a fair discount on the factory presets to a user who doesn't want them, particularly as, in the development of the synth itself, they are probably a tiny fraction of the outlay (assuming the developer is costing their time at a reasonable and not just treating spare time as free)? And, how do you then deal with the people who then argue, having got the discount, that they should be entitled to the presets because "they don't cost anything to ship, do they"?

I'd pay more to get rid of fake wood panels and rack ears though.

what if we take away the discounted price?
im beginning to see the price reduction as irrelavant, how would you feel if it was the same price? would that change how you view this discussion?

as for dealing with people who demand the presets after the fact, tell em to eff off they made their choice

[Gamma-UT]

what if we take away the discounted price?
im beginning to see the price reduction as irrelavant, how would you feel if it was the same price? would that change how you view this discussion?

For me I think it does, on reflection. Devs may see it differently. But do you need a different version or simply the ability to zero out the factory bank at install or runtime? Having said it's easy to kill off the factory bank, I remembered there are some synths out there that have the presets baked-in -- overwriting them is not possible so it gets harder (slightly) to manage your own. Most of the time, it just overwrite the ones I don't like so the presence of unwanted presets doesn't offend me. But I can see people wanting a clean slate, especially in those synths that don't cater well to that. Personally, I think devs would be better off doing it as an option in one product rather than a separate item. It gets complicated managing multiple product sets.

as for dealing with people who demand the presets after the fact, tell em to eff off they made their choice

Yeah, that always goes down well, especially here. The customer is always right, especially if you can recruit online allies to your slightly bonkers cause.

[vurt]

But I can see people wanting a clean slate, especially in those synths that don't cater well to that.

yeah thats all im thinking.

if lotuzia or any other devs can join in about how difficult it might be to offer a clean slate? just a bank of init patches would be good too.

lets forget the money issue for now and just discuss the removal of the patches as a hypotetical idea at the moment

i have no issue with sound designers, they do work hard and the majority of them do good work. i have respect for both them and their work, i also respect the idea that many people are more interested in making music, so presets can be essential to them, i enjoy the work of many of those people too. i have no problems with anyone using what they use, please show the same respect to my needs/desires. im not asking or telling anyone to change the way they work, im just asking of another option is possible for myself and others who work differently (again not aimed at the person quoted above, just a general comment on the thread)

[samsam]

Cars don't have presets, nobody moans. Bikes don't have them either. Or pets.

[vurt]

Cars don't have presets, nobody moans. Bikes don't have them either. Or pets.

could gears be presets?

oh shit its clarkson time again!!!

are you the stig?

my cat pretty much continually sings, sounds like gizmo from gremlins
i would record it but if i put the mic near hiim he just tries to chew the cable :grrr!:

[Kriminal]

I understand what you mean vurt, and its not a bad idea, but i just wonder how much cheaper it would actually be, if at all. I get the feeling most ppl prefer presets. Either to use out if the bix or as starting points to learn a synth

I dont mind either way as i rarely pay for anything

[vurt]

im willing to drop the idea of a reduced price dave
and i understand presets are important to many folk, for whatever reasons from learning a synth or just to get productions done quickly.

dont pay for much myself either but its a good job you dont, day off with the back eh?

[Lotuzia]

But I can see people wanting a clean slate, especially in those synths that don't cater well to that.

yeah thats all im thinking.

if lotuzia or any other devs can join in about how difficult it might be to offer a clean slate? just a bank of init patches would be good too.

lets forget the money issue for now and just discuss the removal of the patches as a hypotetical idea at the moment

i have no issue with sound designers, they do work hard and the majority of them do good work. i have respect for both them and their work, i also respect the idea that many people are more interested in making music, so presets can be essential to them, i enjoy the work of many of those people too. i have no problems with anyone using what they use, please show the same respect to my needs/desires. im not asking or telling anyone to change the way they work, im just asking of another option is possible for myself and others who work differently (again not aimed at the person quoted above, just a general comment on the thread)

I think It would cost at least "time", and therefore .... money, and also very simply it means time not spent on other things including rewarding updates, bug fixes etc etc : Different installers, more versions to maintain, more pages on the website for different versions, explaining the differences between versions, simple referencing issues, ( more references = more difficult choices for users and white noise on buzz, different links for updates, in a word possible confusion on the user side, and potential error sources for us )

Aslo please note that on Xils synths ( sorry but I dont know if there are many other synths to offer that) you can choose to use the factory library ... or not. ( there's aa toggle in the bank drop down menu : Dont use factory )So if its just for the feature, you can use that. I did not think as this beeing especially usefull until now tbh, but well, your query just show I was wrong. So I logically deduce that if money is not the issue, an unique version for the plug in with this feature might be the best way to go.

[Kriminal]

im willing to drop the idea of a reduced price dave
and i understand presets are important to many folk, for whatever reasons from learning a synth or just to get productions done quickly.

dont pay for much myself either but its a good job you dont, day off with the back eh?

yes, and cant get to GP till weds....meds run out today