Music production and arrogance

[jancivil]

I think 'producing music' in place of becoming a musician, like at all, is a form of arrogance.

I disagree. For many forms of contemporary music, 'producing' is appropriate form. That is since you don't really need to be a musician to do it. Take hip-hop for example, or ambient, or whatever kind of mechanic-electronic music, so to call it. We could discuss, if the outcome could be still called music, but 'producing' is spot on. There's nothing arrogant about it. In fact, I think calling it 'arrogant' is kind of arrogant. On the other hand, I think any artist has to be arrogant, either a musician or a producer.

I get called arrogant PLENTY. I was certain saying that about producing would have this result directly.

anyone that wants to have me arrogant per that can kiss my ass. I've approached music from the ultimate humility. I f**king know when someone is doing something I didn't, or couldn't achieve. I've been in the woodshed constantly over four decades.

There are people that approach music from a desire for the easiest, quickest approbration from people, out of the absolute least effort possible.
That is the idea behind Producing Music rather than becoming a musician. Before Teh Producer syndrome where people that got little paltry rock bands together to kinda sorta cover the popular bits, to be popular. To look cool. But even so, you couldn't get over on people with absolutely no ability!

Note Well, I said in place of becoming a musician at all. What is not arrogant about that idea? What is difficult about my statement?

"That is since you don't really need to be a musician to do it." RIGHT. THAT IS ARROGANT.
Adjective:
Having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance

Becoming a musician requires courage, and dedication. One has to realize going in, one is not important. One is very tiny, one is approaching a wonderful, infinite area of beauty. One ought to be humble and willing to work to achieve a result; the opposite of this is the drive to posture as if you've PRODUCED music. Someone else likely did the actual PRODUCING, yet the Producer is Entitled to bragging rights, never having "made some beats" happen from scratch, by their hand, by their own muscle.

What you have here is a corruption of language following a corruption of thought.

[Zombie Queen]

Note Well, I said in place of becoming a musician at all. What is not arrogant about that idea? What is difficult about my statement?

Your statement is not difficult, it's just wrong.

Take hip-hop for example. One may be a musician and make great tracks, like The Roots, but one may not play any instrument at all and make great tracks too and achieve a good deal of mastery at cutting and mixing phrases recorded by musicians beforehand, like DJ Muggs for example. Or to take it to territory you possibly know better, Negativland - would you call them musicians or producers?

I'm just saying we have some branches of 'music' that don't need musicians 'at all'.

I understand your take on this, I used to to think like you, but I changed my mind. I know there is mega-mass of so called tracks that take 5 minutes to make and are worth nothing, but really, the same applies to music. Slightly more steep learning curve didn't stop people from making crap before we had machines that don't require musicianship to emit sound.

Like my old friend said back in the 90's, good techno ain't bad.

[Tricky-Loops]

I'm just saying we have some branches of 'music' that don't need musicians 'at all'.

Who is a musician? It's just someone who makes music. It doesn't matter with what he/she makes music. A musician could make music with real (hardware) instruments, computer software, construction-kit-loops, garbage, broken glasses or even with his mouth (think of beatboxing).

And if it's good music, the musician should be proud of. But he doesn't need to get arrogant...

[herodotus]

I know there is mega-mass of so called tracks that take 5 minutes to make and are worth nothing, but really, the same applies to music. Slightly more steep learning curve didn't stop people from making crap before we had machines that don't require musicianship to emit sound.

No, but one might still think that the descending slope of quality has gotten steep to the point of being a cliff. Music has gotten easier and easier to do, to the point where people actually spend money on algorithmic composition tools.

At what point does the sound coming out of someone's speakers cease to be music? Never?

You won't find anyone who is more aware of the difficulties involved in defining or judging music than me. But at some hard to define place a line has to be drawn in the sand where a certain minimum amount of effort must be involved for sound to be called 'music', just as a certain minimum amount of malt has to be involved to call something 'beer'. Otherwise, the words become meaningless.

[Zombie Queen]

Music is defined by the matter of effort. Either is the quality of it.

[herodotus]

Music is defined by the matter of effort. Either is the quality of it.

What?

Is there a typo here?

[Tricky-Loops]

I know there is mega-mass of so called tracks that take 5 minutes to make and are worth nothing, but really, the same applies to music. Slightly more steep learning curve didn't stop people from making crap before we had machines that don't require musicianship to emit sound.

No, but one might still think that the descending slope of quality has gotten steep to the point of being a cliff. Music has gotten easier and easier to do, to the point where people actually spend money on algorithmic composition tools.

At what point does the sound coming out of someone's speakers cease to be music? Never?

You won't find anyone who is more aware of the difficulties involved in defining or judging music than me. But at some hard to define place a line has to be drawn in the sand where a certain minimum amount of effort must be involved for sound to be called 'music', just as a certain minimum amount of malt has to be involved to call something 'beer'. Otherwise, the words become meaningless.

If you stroll around the streets, clapping your hands and gibbering some cheap lyrics, you are making MUSIC!

But the question is: Is that music other people want to hear? Or do you make this music just to please yourself? Maybe other people would even pay for NOT having to listen to this kind of music?

And I'm sure that even some musicians would come and say, that's REAL music, because it's made with REAL instruments (hand, mouth)...

[kx.001]

No, but one might still think that the descending slope of quality has gotten steep to the point of being a cliff. Music has gotten easier and easier to do, to the point where people actually spend money on algorithmic composition tools.

easier to get out to an audience maybe. I'd *guess* that there is the same amount of people having a go at music, but now you're able to hear more of the dross, and the same amount of good, whle previously the really tirrible would be confined to a garage or a grotty bar that you live half way round the world from. teh internets, no?

[Zombie Queen]

My mouse ate the 'not'.

I mean, the amount of effort put in making a piece of music, is irrelevant.

[mellotronaut]

Music is defined by the matter of effort. Either is the quality of it.

means: Music isn't defined by the matter of effort. Neither is the quality of it.

right, imo.

[Tricky-Loops]

I mean, the amount of effort put in making a piece of music, is irrelevant.

For most listeners it is (as long as the music sounds good). For most musicians it is not irrelevant (because they want to be better than other musicians).

[Tricky-Loops]

Now let's start some discussion about what is REAL music.

Then we clearly can see WHO is arrogant...

[mellotronaut]

I mean, the amount of effort put in making a piece of music, is irrelevant.

For most listeners it is (as long as the music sounds good). For most musicians it is not irrelevant (because they want to be better than other musicians).

a lot of musicians overestimate their noodle doodle jam abilities.

[mellotronaut]

Now let's start some discussion about what is REAL music.

Then we clearly can see WHO is arrogant...

music is intentional noise made by humans or by whales

[Tricky-Loops]

Now let's start some discussion about what is REAL music.

Then we clearly can see WHO is arrogant...

music is intentional noise made by humans or by whales

So, THAT is ARROGANT to say that whales make music as good as humans...