Music production and arrogance

[ras.s]

but to be more precise to hero's point, 'art' derives from 'artifice', which denotes effort. "Artless/effortless" is a vague rhetorical flourish to try and indicate a person that has enough facility (which tends to mean did enough preparation) to not seem to be laborious.

Just a side-note here.. According to one compiled dictionary, etymonline.com : http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=art

art: early 13c., "skill as a result of learning or practice," from O.Fr. art (10c.), from L. artem (nom. ars) "work of art; practical skill; a business, craft," from PIE *ar-ti- (cf. Skt. rtih "manner, mode;" Gk. arti "just," artios "complete, suitable," artizein "to prepare;" L. artus "joint;" Armenian arnam "make;" Ger. art "manner, mode"), from root *ar- "fit together, join"


So that root meaning, "fit together, join", quite well describe such styles as mashups and favela funk etc, that I guess some people won't consider music with musicianship ..

[jancivil]

[jancivil]

"just keep saying it:"

[Tricky-Loops]

Seriously, all dictionaries are made up of helpless attempts to classify something that isn't able to classify.

that is the stupidest thing I've seen today. All words are up for grabs because you can't handle them.

That's the stupidest comment I've seen in my whole life.

where is the error? You said definitions are hopeless attempts to 'classify'. No, a 'definition' means to 'make definite'. Note 'finite' in that, 'to limit'. 'Classify' doesn't even apply here. There is more than one problem in what you said. Did you mean something other than what you wrote? We can all read what you did write and I challenge you to show a problem of my reading.

Because I do not have the time for this war games.

Clearly you do, this post evidences that.

Show me 50,000 definitions of "music", and every definition is different. And there are almost infinite definitions. You can't say, I have ONE dictionary XY from the States, and that shows the only true definition for music. I don't believe in people who say they knew the truth, because they mostly are liars.

[mellotronaut]

a solemn decisionism is not even 'l'art pour l'art'.

No. I think it's the essence of art. To say 'this is good' and carry it out.

indeed, you have to carry it out and get references, personal, interpersonal and cultural references. this is not the essence of art though, but a pattern we need to get recognition.

edit: which btw requires a good deal of arrogance

autism?

[JJBiener]

so i want to know from users here what is regarded as arrogant when producing music. For example I go to a friend and tell him I wil produce a track and it will sound good. the friend says you are arrogant for thinking this. is it really arrogant or is it not arrogant? some people have very high expectations for others to be modest, but I think if you put a lot of work into a track, you are allowed to say it will be good in my opinoin. you should allow critics for it but do you have to put yourself down and say your track will be bad just to sound modest? I think there is a border in having self conciousness and being arrogant? What is the opinon of forum members here aobut that?

First of all, having confidence in your work and expressing that confidence is not arrogance. If you don't have confidence in your work, you can forget ever having a career in music. There are plenty of people who will try to tear you down, and all you will have to fight them with is your confidence.

Let's also not confuse modesty with false modesty or self-deprecation. Minimizing your accomplishments or deliberately putting yourself down is never a good thing. There is nothing immodest about presenting an honest self-assessment of your ability. This of course requires a bit of self-knowledge and reflection, but it should be something a musician/artist/producer engages in on a regular basis in order to find ways to constantly improve.

Arrogance is off-putting as can be demonstrated by about 90% of the posts on this thread. False modesty is just the flip side of arrogance. Be honest about what you can achieve and then deliver what you promise. That will result in the respect of your peers, customers, fans and anyone else you encounter.

[herodotus]

Music is defined by the matter of effort. Either is the quality of it.

means: Music isn't defined by the matter of effort. Neither is the quality of it.

right, imo.

I don't think that there is any simple effort:quality ratio or anything like that. But effort is still a sine qua non of art. Not all music has to be art, just as not all language has to be literature, but when we are talking about music-as-an-art, effort is pretty much built into the definition.

i've got a lot of applause for something that needed just half an hour and not much effort, while something, i put a lot of effort in, remained almost unnoticed. there must be something else in music that lets the strings vibrate.

I said that effort is a sine qua non of art, not that it was the whole of art.

It is a necessary condition, not a sufficient condition.

[jancivil]

as far as what I indicated, <the essence of music ultimately thins out>... in extremis I posited the thought experiment sort of idea, imagine one day there is no bassist and drummer to loop off of...

this is an historical inevitability. It is happening. For evidence take a real good look at pop music. the really good grooves are giving way now to club musik four on the floor; since it got traction. It gets traction in the actual area of production, because it is less labor intensive. The industry will push the shit out of it and who's the wiser. Who needs a drummer? Gradually the intricacies, the LIFE and the BREATH of a pop production are obviated. I'm old enough to know from fantastic popular records made by the most masterful musicians. Who needs them today? The idea is sold to the masses, 'this is cool', 'this is what everybody is going for' by brute force, repetition.

If you can stick melodyne on any vocal performance and make it 'tuneful', is this not cost-effective? You make it trend by constant placement. Soon a good singer must comply to be commercial, to be placed on 'urban radio'. Y'all being CHUMPED, cheated and you're just gone go with it, like you buy the products off the TV ads, it's driven into your very consciousness and you comply like Pavlov's dogs.

This happened in art music, minimalism was a no-brainer to save money for the people that fund concert music, which has to show a profit. It was a great dumbing-down, albeit with rhetoric to elevate it via journalism.
the working model is known.

You can stick your head in the sand but it is ignoring something quite real.

It isn't about being close-minded ZQ; you could open your mind up to the argument here, take a moment.

As far as the noise about the arrogance of musicians, eg., me for saying being a musician is better for music: envy is not a pretty sight, arguing from a position of resentment, out of weakness is not going to gain you anything but grief.

I did not come to music with an arrogant attitude. I expected to be humbled. I exposed myself to be humiliated/ to get cut, as a matter of course. I heeded my betters and didn't talk smack. Don't behave an infant and expect to be automatically respected. I'm not tricked.

Four on the floor, you know, this is mass conformity, be cool, go to the club, drank that shit, take your E, y'all all the same guy. Chumped.

[billcarroll]

[VitaminD]

In short, yes it is arrogant if you praise your song before its finished. Good or bad are terms to be left entirely to your audience.

Also it could be delusional. I know I have made many songs I thought were great but others did not have such a high opinion of them

This too.

I've made songs I thought were great... then months/years later heard them again and literally cringed in confused agony of what I was thinking.


It is interesting how one's brain can hear polished song X and think not-fit-to-be-called-proper-music Y sounds alike.. especially when Y is really a cruddy, misshapen piece of garbage not worthy of anyone's listening time.

I think I've become slightly better though.. at least I've dropped the ego now that I see I'm a crappy producer of all things music.

I've discovered I'm really very uninteresting and ordinary in a lot of ways I thought I wasn't.


Sometimes it takes a few (hundred) steps back to see this.. But it doesn't stop me from continuing to try to improve..

Ahh actually I have come to realize my biggest issue is not in ability.. I am fairly capable. Ability isn't my biggest issue and probably not most people's issue.. especially when producing music with a sequencer (no playability skill required).

My biggest issue is laziness.. I create the 8 bar chorus or whatever and then call it a day.. once it gets to the hard part of expanding the song from catchy hook to full story, I tend to leave the computer to go watch tv, read, or play some game.. blah. On THAT is what I need to work.

Not that anyone should care.. but I felt like typing my pointless post anyways.. mainly because this thread sort of pulled it out of the back of my head onto the forefront. thanks, kvrians.

[dusted william]

as far as what I indicated, <the essence of music ultimately thins out>... in extremis I posited the thought experiment sort of idea, imagine one day there is no bassist and drummer to loop off of...

this is an historical inevitability. It is happening. For evidence take a real good look at pop music. the really good grooves are giving way now to club musik four on the floor; since it got traction. It gets traction in the actual area of production, because it is less labor intensive. The industry will push the shit out of it and who's the wiser. Who needs a drummer? Gradually the intricacies, the LIFE and the BREATH of a pop production are obviated. I'm old enough to know from fantastic popular records made by the most masterful musicians. Who needs them today? The idea is sold to the masses, 'this is cool', 'this is what everybody is going for' by brute force, repetition.

If you can stick melodyne on any vocal performance and make it 'tuneful', is this not cost-effective? You make it trend by constant placement. Soon a good singer must comply to be commercial, to be placed on 'urban radio'. Y'all being CHUMPED, cheated and you're just gone go with it, like you buy the products off the TV ads, it's driven into your very consciousness and you comply like Pavlov's dogs.

This happened in art music, minimalism was a no-brainer to save money for the people that fund concert music, which has to show a profit. It was a great dumbing-down, albeit with rhetoric to elevate it via journalism.
the working model is known.

You can stick your head in the sand but it is ignoring something quite real.

It isn't about being close-minded ZQ; you could open your mind up to the argument here, take a moment.

As far as the noise about the arrogance of musicians, eg., me for saying being a musician is better for music: envy is not a pretty sight, arguing from a position of resentment, out of weakness is not going to gain you anything but grief.

I did not come to music with an arrogant attitude. I expected to be humbled. I exposed myself to be humiliated/ to get cut, as a matter of course. I heeded my betters and didn't talk smack. Don't behave an infant and expect to be automatically respected. I'm not tricked.

Four on the floor, you know, this is mass conformity, be cool, go to the club, drank that shit, take your E, y'all all the same guy. Chumped.

I'm surprised that you haven't realized by now that things go in cycles...

You really think it will always be the way it is now?

dw

[dusted william]

@ vitamin D

I'm the same as you

I'm even being lazy right now...

dw

[Hink]

If I walk into a restaurant and noticed that every table had huge plates on them I might expect a large serving but if they had smaller plates I might think average serving size. If the smaller plate came with a large steak on it hanging over the edges I might be impressed by how large the steak is. However if I put that same steak on the huge plate it may not look as big and I might not be impressed at all.

If you talk big people will only expect more, there is little room to impress them and it can very easy to disappoint them. If you keep it humble then there is more room to impress them and less room to disappoint them...I'm just saying...

[mcnoone]

If you talk big people will only expect more, there is little room to impress them and it can very easy to disappoint them. If you keep it humble then there is more room to impress them and less room to disappoint them...I'm just saying...

I'm impressed with your knowledge of ancient Chinese philosophy there Hink.
Very good.
He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good.
~Confucius

[ghettosynth]

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