Used sales of reason are SO high, it is time for props to take notice - serious topic, LONG post

[djanthonyw]

edit: of course I don't mean "you need vst if you want to make music". I mean "vst (support) is a must AMONG 2012 electronic musicians".

That's is why I am asking what makes it so important for you guys. I tend to find that EDM guys are generally a head of the curve when it comes to music so I think seeing where you are coming from may actually be of benefit to me in the future.

vst support is not a must for me *at all*

i am an electronic musician. So there is at least one who doesn't care about the precious "vst"

ps logic does quite well and has not had vst support for 10 years

in Europe "vst" is a way to call plugins (AU/RTAS and all the vst derivatives), because they were (and actually are) the first ones. AU is just a vst sort of copyclone, because of the Apple (stupid) manthra "we are different, we are better" etc. I use Logic Pro, but still call those "AU"s "vst useless apple version"

roflmbao

Do people also called pictures "jpegs"...?

See my signature.

[whyterabbyt]

Do people also called pictures "jpegs"...?

yes. and they call using a search engine 'googling', using an image editor 'photoshopping' and clean their floors with a 'hoover'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genericized_trademark

time to get used to it.

[myrna]

how can you call "a plugin format" something made ONLY for a piece of software? As far as I know, a plugin must be something I can play wherever I want, multiplatform, multiO.S., multidaw... E.g. vst plugins, working everywhere (apart logic, for the stupid apple policy).

because the term plug in is not just a music software thing. A plug in is an after release add on in the computer world in general. The same way I can buy plug ins for firefox that will only work for firefox.

... and that is why the most correct term for audio plugins is "vst". And call AU/RTAS etc. "vst derivatives"...

[gamecat666]

wasn't this place called KVR-VST at one point? or is my memory a bit hazy?

(edit) appalling grammar..

[whyterabbyt]

As far as I know, a plugin must be something I can play wherever I want, multiplatform, multiO.S., multidaw...

you know wrong then. which is strange, because it was explained very clearly to you the last time you made the claim. i gather you're not that interested in genuine facts, though.

[headquest]

Firstly, ttoz, I just read your excellent OP, and have voted "yes" with you on that basis. But I've not yet read the whole 10 pages of other responses, so apologies if I duplicate what others have said.

As a long term user, I think all your points are correct, but there are other also to consider.

I would like to say too that, although my posts concerning Reason have been generally negative in recent months, if you look back five years you will find that I was pretty much a foaming-at-the-mouth total fanboy for Reason back in the day. The fact that I no longer am speaks for itself and is relevant to your topic, even though I haven't actually put my copy of Reason on sale in the marketplace (actually I may do that though sometime soon, unless there are radical changes).

So, what are the other reasons that I think people may be selling Reason at a fair speed these days?

+ It's now clear that anyone who wants to use Reason as their main DAW is in for an expensive ride. In the past, Reason was self-contained and closed, and you knew that the entry price was the *only* price, except for relatively rare and inexpensive upgrades back in the day, and any commercial refills you chose (which were generally cheaper than VST sampler disks). This has not simply changed - it has reversed. The price of Re in their store already exceeds $1000 and there's just a few starter products so far...

+ In the same way, if you wanted to use Reason as a synth/sampler workstation in rewire mode in your other DAW, it used to represent superb value for money, but no longer. Plus with its huge SSL desk emulation, etc, it is complete overkill using Reason 6.5 as a rewire slave anyway. A daft paradigm, plain and simple.

+ It's now clear that Reason will never enter the mainstream DAW world.

+ There have always been many Reason users who came up against its limitations and moved on to other platforms. Following the latest update the roadmap for Reason is clearer than it has been for quite a long time, so it is inevitable that some users will look at that and realise that it is going to remain something of a dead end for them. (while others will be rejoicing that they can now exercise the same gear lust/addiction that other DAW users have known for years!)

+ Re hasn't actually expanded Reason except to give it more of the same. Nothing so far is a game changer. No wonderful sampler in sight (NN-XT is getting very long in the tooth), no amazing synths to genuinely compare with Alchemy, Omnisphere, etc... No orchestral sample libraries or stuff that appeals to a different audience. Essentially Reason 6 was suitable for people into electronic dance and hop hop genres, and the same still applies. Nothing new....

+ The company has changed. These days it's all about sales, spin and marketing bullsh*t, and some people simply aren't impressed with that. A lot of musicians are actually quite independently minded people who really think things through, and can spot the obvious lies.

I bet there's more (and when I read other responses I'll no doubt see that) but the bottom line is that for some of us who have been around Reason over many years, it's got old, boring, and stale.

Perhaps above all else, the arrogance, isolationism and control-freakery of Propellerhead is a huge turn off I think.

Hope those points add to the picture in a useful way, and it's no surprise to me that people are moving away from Reason in droves.

[myrna]

Do people also called pictures "jpegs"...?
See my signature.

Well, actually yes. For instance, here (Europe) we call all that music played by ipods and similar "mp3" even if everyone knows there are other formats (wma, aas etc.). It is kind of a "standard" definition, there is no need to specify it is "audio compression technology" or similar. So, we call "jpg" computer pictures, even if maybe they are not compressed in jpg. VST for audio plugins, etc.

[kmonkey]

Do people also called pictures "jpegs"...?
See my signature.

Well, actually yes. For instance, here (Europe) we call all that music played by ipods and similar "mp3" even if everyone knows there are other formats (wma, aas etc.). It is kind of a "standard" definition, there is no need to specify it is "audio compression technology" or similar. So, we call "jpg" computer pictures, even if maybe they are not compressed in jpg. VST for audio plugins, etc.

Mmmhhh...speak for yourself

I am from Europe and i never heard anyone here in my country to call pictures "jpegs"..they call it well..."pictures"..and "photos" that's all i hear here

[dalor]

People here sometimes even never heard or seen a computer and try to find the man behind the computer screen.
And you talk about jpgs and VST. Devils Work it what it is!!!

[neverenoughfunk]

They really are different products, IMO, because you can easily route audio in and out plus CV capabilites. These are new enhancements that simply don't exist in the AU or VST version (that I'm aware of).

the Rack Extensions instruments do not have audio in/out like the stock Reason instruments...

not sure what your point is...

[myrna]

pictures? Never heard people talking about internet, cameras and computer pics calling them "pictures". They call them "pics" meaning "jpgs". It is like "send me a pdf" meaning "a document", "listen to this mp3" or "this cd" for "music" etc. Regarding audio plugins, we call them "vst". If you talk about "AU" they answer "ehm, whatchutalkinbout, willie?" Let alone "RE"

[headquest]

They completely dropped closed eco system which until now provided users to collaborate across the world without worrying about any kind of "compatibility" issue other then version of program alone. This isn't a case anymore since they introduced RE which by itself is killing that feature which was one of key selling point.

THIS .... is also hugely important point.

Recall in the other thread that eXode (one of the most well know refill developers) said he can't make refills that use any Re products, or else he immediately limits his market. So he will have to stick to just using stock Reason devices. And as such Re is a complete wasted investment.

Basically Propellerhead have succeeded in creating two separate commercial streams - Refills and Rack Extensions - which from any business point of view are now mutually exclusive

And in terms of collaboration, I would say Ableton Live + VST is now a better option, because you can freeze VST tracks (but keep their preserved state) and send a self-contained file like Reason Song files used to be.... and have no compatibility options. In Reason 6.5 you would have to bounce it down to audio, etc... more time consuming for sure.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

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[ObsoleteAcc99]

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[liquidsound]

I assume when most say vst they really mean plug in but then again RE is a plug in format

PRECISELY

Hello?
Call them as you wish. It ain't going to help.
RE is a Propellerhead Format. (.)<<<period

One thing I can't understand is how can you go from a "sequencer" like Logic to the one in Reason

I think you are in Love .
No other explanation