Used sales of reason are SO high, it is time for props to take notice - serious topic, LONG post

[drez]

Check out their company - around 25 employees, even though they claim to produce "the world's most popular music software". They have been going longer that Ableton, who have more than 100 staff. Not exactly investing in their future are they (or in their customers support, etc) ... ?

Why is it that a company has to have a bunch of people on staff to be successful? Could it be that Ableton is overstaffed because of scaffolding problems in sales, support, dev, etc? Could it be that PH is very efficient for its userbase and that they are actually all making a lot of money because they are efficiently managed?

If you've made a product that works well, intuitive, and has a passionate fanbase...maybe you don't need that many people. How many people does it take to work at a business before it is considered "successful"?

[ObsoleteAcc99]

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[myrna]

ttoz wrote: i don't think i would have bought the program if at the time i knew RE's were not transferrable and there would be no crossgrades for my vst versions, and i AM angry about that for sure. I feel a little deceived, and as i said in my first post i only bought the program after watching the RE video.

You have to understand RE and VST are different things, so there is no reason to ask for crossgrades or discounts. Propellerhead is clear about this: "if you play reason you don't need anything else". So they assume you don't own vsts. This is their policy: you have to accept it as a Reason user. And that is why they won't ever introduce vst support. Besides, they invented "rewire" protocol, and want it to be used (even if it is a total mess).

[headquest]

i actually don't understand this at all because it would be the same if they allowed vst/au plugins... for the ones they offer in their RE shop, besides Rough Rider, the vst/au is usually more expensive, so why would one choose the vst version of softube for example instead? and where does reason stop being as useful as it was before the re introduction? i don't get your point here i am sorry to say.. i am trying to, but i don't.. I am using reason right now with no re's and 2 commercial refills so my total cost so far has been the program, + miroslav + exode..oops and vengenace thor.. that's it.. i don't HAVE to spend more unless i want to. the way i see it, we are simply given the OPTION to spend more now if we WANT to.. no guns to heads

It was two points in one I guess, but your response there highlights the difference in outlook that you have as a new user to that which long term users might have (i.e. the ones now selling...). To clarify the two things I meant though:

1) For better of worse we used to consider Reason to be "complete", the only expansion option being additional samples. So like it not, the price of Reason (about £250) was the only price. That just changed. The Re products already on sale cost FOUR times the cost of Reason itself. Not a problem if you retain the old view that it is complete.... but that's unlikely. And Propellerhead themselves are essentially saying now that it isn't, contrary to everything they said before.

2) There are perfectly good VST hosts for under £100 and plenty of freeware VST effects (and a few instruments) that are actually a whole lot better than *most* of what's currently on sale in the Prop Shop. Not meaning to burst any bubbles here - but this is the plain truth.

mainstream, as in vst/au support? in every other way i find it as competitive as it's um competition

I meant in terms of integration. Not only VST/AU/DX/RTAS/etc support, but MIDI out to integrate with your hardware, ability to send an audio file to a proper wave editor, integration with Video, integration with Soundcloud (or at least the ability to read and write to MP3 - the biggest consumer audio format!)...

For better or worse, Propellerhead have made it more clear than ever that they will continue to ignore the standards the rest of the world work to and impose their own. For most musicians this is actually *for worse*

some of the devices are game changes for REASON users, such as the FET, bitspeek etc..

A decent solo violin sample... now THAT would be a game changer for Reason users... Or a flute sound that doesn't have a mental amount of vibrato on it.... not available in Reason just yet. Maybe one day...

i don't see any reason why reason has to be a game changer compared to other hosts?

It doesn't. That's just PH marketing nonsense and/or developer arrogence. A way to justify continuing going their own way rather than admitting they have painted themselves into a corner...

[ObsoleteAcc99]

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[djanthonyw]

Do people also called pictures "jpegs"...?

yes.

Really? They call pictures "jpegs" even if they're in "png" format?

[headquest]

Recall in the other thread that eXode (one of the most well know refill developers) said he can't make refills that use any Re products, or else he immediately limits his market. So he will have to stick to just using stock Reason devices. And as such Re is a complete wasted investment.

this is absolutely ridiculous mate. I can't give any logical credit to that at ALL.

let's use a comparison..
so people should make only logic packs for logic users using the inbuilt synths?
UM.. no.... people make them for third party stuff.. alchemy... for this example..
does everyone use alchemy? NO
so there is no point in then making soundbanks for alchemy?
to not want to make a patch set for say poly six for the people that DO own it is just as silly as not wanting to make a patch set for any other plug in that not everyone owns.

Your points here show you've not quite got into the Reason mentality yet

In any case, this is the point made by eXode, probably the best know commercial refill maker in the Reason community. But let me try to explain why your comparissons are wrong here:

1) Logic comes with a huge amount of sample content and loads of presets for its devices. Reason ... on a smaller scale. Which is why until now Reason users have looked to talented sound designers like eXode to fill the void and provide that content.

2) The Alchemy sound sets are provided to a considerable user base because Alchemy exists on numerous platforms and can be used by every musician on the globe - except Reason users. However, Re devices have the limited market of Reason users only, and even within that market there's already a growing bunch of alternative Re products to divide the customer base up.

3) Most important of all - Reason is a modular environment. To get the best from it you need to wire together multiple devices. As eXode put it, suppose he uses an Re effect within a Combinator device - as soon as he does that it is no use to people that didn't choose to buy that specific Re. Maybe to get the best sound he wants in a Combinator device he uses a Korg synth, a FET effect from softtube... etc. Very small market. Simply not commercially viable. I wish I could underline the importance of this to the Reason community as is/was .... for most of us we are used to this modular environment where we work with the exact same devices to make stuff that is universally useful. But Propellerhead have just broken that beyond repair, and the age of the Refill is probably largely over, except perhaps for providing raw sample content.

[myrna]

Do people also called pictures "jpegs"...?

yes.

Really? They call a pictures "jpegs" even if they're in "png" format?

Common people? YES. Maybe technician or geeks NO... But here I see common people. And it is not meant as an insult. SO I would be surprised if entering a shop to buy a mp3 player the clerk started to talk about audio compression algorithms

[headquest]

Why is it that a company has to have a bunch of people on staff to be successful?

Well when their website went into meltdown, lackof personel was cited as an excuse...

When it was taking their customer support team up to 2 weeks to respond to an email... it was lack of staff.

When people ask for MIDI out .... "we're only a small company..."

Keeping the company small increases the hard cash profit that the top brass make. It's great for the balance sheet. But it has a detrimental effect on their customers.

[headquest]

I don't think there is a third way, just accept reason lacks of vst support and that is why 99% of people are selling it in the market place.

With respect, I think this is complete and utter nonsense.

There are LOADS of reasons why people would walk away from Reason, and while expandability via VST might be one of them it's only one thing on a considerable list. And right now, in the advent of Re, it's probably not even in the top five.

More to the point, as ttoz said in his OP, I think many users are simply beginning to realise that Reason is turning into a bit of a crap deal overall.

[myrna]

no at that point they said they would offer crossgrades though.. now you are defending them? ok i give up.

As I said, Propellerheads are good people, always correct and loyal. But they have their policy: (1) Reason is all you need; (2) If you own external plugins, just use Reason rewired in another DAW.

For me:
(1) not true.
(2) i don't see why I should buy another DAW if I have Reason. Much Simpler adding VST support.

So, no hate. Just different points of view. Accept their policy and be happy.

[KevWestBeats]

Do people also called pictures "jpegs"...?
See my signature.

Well, actually yes. For instance, here (Europe) we call all that music played by ipods and similar "mp3" even if everyone knows there are other formats (wma, aas etc.). It is kind of a "standard" definition, there is no need to specify it is "audio compression technology" or similar. So, we call "jpg" computer pictures, even if maybe they are not compressed in jpg. VST for audio plugins, etc.

maybe thats part of the disconnect that I dont see by your definitions. I don't make electronic music and I am American. Cultural differences perhaps

[myrna]

I don't think there is a third way, just accept reason lacks of vst support and that is why 99% of people are selling it in the market place.

With respect, I think this is complete and utter nonsense.

There are LOADS of reasons why people would walk away from Reason, and while expandability via VST might be one of them it's only one thing on a considerable list. And right now, in the advent of Re, it's probably not even in the top five.

More to the point, as ttoz said in his OP, I think many users are simply beginning to realise that Reason is turning into a bit of a crap deal overall.

Just a simple question, then: why you are not happy about Reason anymore? Honestly. Because of the dongle?...

[myrna]

Do people also called pictures "jpegs"...?
See my signature.

Well, actually yes. For instance, here (Europe) we call all that music played by ipods and similar "mp3" even if everyone knows there are other formats (wma, aas etc.). It is kind of a "standard" definition, there is no need to specify it is "audio compression technology" or similar. So, we call "jpg" computer pictures, even if maybe they are not compressed in jpg. VST for audio plugins, etc.

maybe thats part of the disconnect that I dont see by your definitions. I don't make electronic music and I am American. Cultural differences perhaps

I don't know out there (in USA). Here (in Italy) among musicians and in audio-music forums, we always talk about "vst" meaning "audio plugins". If someone says "AU" we all become Arnold replying "whatchutalkinbout??!!" For instance, songs in mp3 format are simply called "mp3". We are common people, you know...

[drez]

There's no need for a "pool", it is simply the truth. I wrote "99%" rather than 100%, because I give you the benefit of doubt, LOL. Otherwise, tell me other reasons: the dongle? no midi out?... Let's be serious: it's because of the "no-vst" issue. Nothing new, we've been asking for that at least since 2003.

If 99% of the people that are leaving is because there's no VST support, then why do people keep buying it even though their IS no VST support? You're 99% number doesn't make rational sense. Its a sweeping generalization with no factual basis.

Besides, The only thing 100% assured is dying. It is also extremely efficient, as It has a 0% failure rate. HiHi

I'd encourage you to start a poll on the why folks leave reason. You can have 3 options.

1. No VST
2. No MIDI out
3. Other

Then we can get a better understanding of the ACTUAL number. I believe you throw these numbers around because those three things that bother you (specifically) the most. This statistic I would believe.

I already explained time ago how it works. You don't need to enter the rack. VST support works in the sequencer, as a midi track, bypassing the rack routings GUI. Why? Because Reason is no more the rack nowadays. In 2001 reason was the rack GUI and the "sequencer" was kind of a toy. Nowadays Reason is the sequencer (midi and audio tracks). See MFL or Reaktor. They work INSIDE a main sequencer environment. So can be the reason rack GUI.

How do you then take a VST effect and put it in the middle of a Scream and Pulverizer, which would be a common usage of a VST? You can do this in Live, for example, in the Instrument/effect lane by putting it "in between" devices (either Live's native devices or other VST's). How would you accomplish this in Reason?

Alas, technology is more and more complex. 10 years ago we had windows 98 and Reason was a revolution. Not nowadays. RTAS versions are made by vst software developers only because Protools is still used in pro-studios. I doubt Spectrasonics or Native Instruments lose time customing their vst for Reason. But you never know...

Maybe they'll just come up with something unique for Reason. Ya never know.

I don't get it. I just say: every newbie reason user is very happy and shows enthusiasm in the beginning, because Reason is a masterpiece and you can go on and on an on playing with it for months. So, if in 2022 Ttoz will still be happy with Reason, even without vst support, good for him. But, as far as I can see here and there, most of people become "fanboys" and don't want to listen to people like me (or headquest), calling us "haters" etc.

Peace.

Myrna, they are selling new copies every day. Youtube is filled with people making video's of how they use Reason and love it. Are they all "fanboys"? Just because somebody uses something and likes it, does that make them a fanboy?

"This word Fanboy...I do not think it means what you think it means" - Inigo Montoya when asked about Reason fanboys