Used sales of reason are SO high, it is time for props to take notice - serious topic, LONG post

[saturdaysaint]

Tempest in a teapot is probably overstating the importance of these things, ttoz. The theory that casual Reason users who got the free upgrade to 6.0 saw a good time to sell sounds the most likely to me. Reason more than any other "host/DAW" has a lot of casual users who buy it as a glorified ROMpler, so I'd imagine the personal economics of VSTs apply, especially at a place like KVR - someone who buys Diva and Geist might decide that Reason is redundant and they're tired of ReWire, in which case who can blame them for selling.

The tone of user forums doesn't indicate much about a company's future. There have been legions of bitter complainers (not to say that they or people upset with Props strategy are unjustified!) on Apple forums about multitudes of problems even as they've become the most profitable technology company in history. I've seen waves of complaints on Ableton, Cakwalk and Steinberg's forums that this controversy pales next to - and those companies have done well since. If anything, I'd say the Props user forum is very upbeat, even in light of some typical post release hiccups.

[schnapsglas]

The tone of user forums doesn't indicate much about a company's future. There have been legions of bitter complainers (not to say that they or people upset with Props strategy are unjustified!) on Apple forums about multitudes of problems even as they've become the most profitable technology company in history. I've seen waves of complaints on Ableton, Cakwalk and Steinberg's forums that this controversy pales next to - and those companies have done well since. If anything, I'd say the Props user forum is very upbeat, even in light of some typical post release hiccups.

I'd agree. Especially when people went ballistic over newer Final Cut Pro. But I guess the difference is Reason basically kept its way AND there were many alternatives all along, which to me means Props is doing rather well. Although I always keep thinking 'couldn't they have done it better.'**

**Same with Reaper too. That thing could be so much better.

[saturdaysaint]

in 2003 vst was still a baby. It's 2012, i don't see how a serious musician could manage without vst plugins, apart ultraorthodox "purists", minimalists or similar.
Regardin AU and AAX those are only derivative copycat's vst versions for apple ("we are different" bullshit) and protools ("we are protools"). Stupid "we are better" policies, not useful and negative for the end user.

Do you know many serious musicians? I know many top notch engineers and musicians (big enough to play major American festivals, appear on national TV, etc.) who rarely reach beyond stock Pro Tools plugs in the studio and who have steadily invested in hardware synths/keyboards and effects over software. The complexity of a computer system is something a lot of people are still hesitant to bring to a stage unless it's completely necessary (which, in turn, means they don't use much of it in the studio). I saw some of the most buzzed about young bands/acts in the world this weekend - Grimes, Purity Ring, Danny Brown, Hot Chip, Oneohtrix Point Never - and you'd be amazed how few laptops were in sight.

The only software I see prominent musicians in my area using heavily is complete platforms like Live, Reason and Maschine. %99 of serious musicians are too busy writing songs and having generally awesome lives to get deep into the vagaries of cutting edge software features or licensing agreements or things they'll need to worry about computer maintenance for.

[Dean Aka Nekro]

No, I don't find it weird that people would have to pay full price for a RE plugin. Not at all. On the contrary. I think it's reasonable and I seriously hope that RE's will actually cost more than VSTs.

Furthermore, I personally hope that Props start to smoke out all the people with thin wallets. These users are just a burden with their negative attitudes and constant demands, it's better to focus on the people who actually want to invest in the brand and fashion of Reason as a tool.

A quick tip how to fatten up the appearence of one's wallet

[IncarnateX]

I had been off PC music until recently and using my iPad2 with a lot of apps instead. However when I learned about Reason 6.5 and the rack extensions I just couldn't resist it.I have previously owned Reason 3 but thought it was to limited then, but this time it is a sure hit in my book.

The thing that does it for me is simply the graphics and modularity. I am so hooked on the modular rack and caple view. It has very little to do with the actual sounds coming from the units for my needs in this respect are very modest. A softsynth has to be very bad to hinder me tweaking something usable out of it it and even the disrespected subtractor is a workhorse to me in this respect.

Reason 6.5 makes up for the things that made me skip PC music in the first place and that was my ever increasing amount of VST and VSTi's and the endless amount of times it took me to install and authorize the arsenal whenever I had to shift computers or reinstall windows. Besides I had more and more instruments and effects but made less and less. If you can not help test every little pattern you make with every single piece of gear in your arsanel, no wonder that you will never finish anything. Thus I remembered where I came from in the first place, namely 4 tracks tape recorders and grooveboxes and skipped the whole deal in favour of the groovebox programs for iPad (Nanostudio, Beatmaker 2, tabletop etc.). These are programs you just buy directly from your apple account, download and start using. No authorization shit. And the limitations of these programs meant that I actually finished something.

While Reason do have to be authorized at least once (which was a little PITA but in the end it did work)
I need no other accounts. It is very light on CPU which suits my Netbook fine, but most importantly, it seems to be the perfect compromise between the limited groovebox approach and a full featured open daw. In addition the mixer section and the ssl compressor emulation is and could be a reason to buy Reason in itself as far as I am concerned.

Now on topic. No matter how good we think a daw is when we buy it, none of us can really secure ourselves against the habituation of our brains. Our brains will eventually cease to respond to the same stimulation unless it is reinforced somehow. An open DAW will have many opportunities for renewal and thus reinforcement: you can just buy some VSTs or VSTi and suddenly it feels like a whole new DAW. If the daw is skinable, it is even better for the purpose of renewal. Add to this frequently relased updates and upgrades and you may have a DAW for life. However a closed system will of course not have these benefits and thus it will be far more easy to be habituated to than an open system. Thus qin theory it should be far more easy to get tired and bored with Reason than an open DAW in the first place. Now whether Reason 6.5. is actually sold more second handly than any other version, we do not really have any statistics that tells us do we? If it were so however, one explanation could be that the concept of RE really invokes some excitement and expectations in people (did in my case for sure) but at the end of the day, the current RE' s do not really add anything significantly to Reason. I have only bought the Polysix and ar bassline for instance. The rest is pretty redundant and useless to me. And honestly, i am not even sure that the polysix and bassline really adds something that I could not tweak out of the other units in the first place. But no regrets. Even without REs, I think Reason is Superb.

Cheers

[schnapsglas]

the mixer section and the ssl compressor emulation is and could be a reason to buy Reason in itself as far as I am concerned.

The SSL section had me creaming in my pants, and probably many of you. They really know how to lure people who produce on computers, don't they?

[myrna]

in 2003 vst was still a baby. It's 2012, i don't see how a serious musician could manage without vst plugins, apart ultraorthodox "purists", minimalists or similar.
Regardin AU and AAX those are only derivative copycat's vst versions for apple ("we are different" bullshit) and protools ("we are protools"). Stupid "we are better" policies, not useful and negative for the end user.

Do you know many serious musicians? I know many top notch engineers and musicians (big enough to play major American festivals, appear on national TV, etc.) who rarely reach beyond stock Pro Tools plugs in the studio and who have steadily invested in hardware synths/keyboards and effects over software. The complexity of a computer system is something a lot of people are still hesitant to bring to a stage unless it's completely necessary (which, in turn, means they don't use much of it in the studio). I saw some of the most buzzed about young bands/acts in the world this weekend - Grimes, Purity Ring, Danny Brown, Hot Chip, Oneohtrix Point Never - and you'd be amazed how few laptops were in sight.

The only software I see prominent musicians in my area using heavily is complete platforms like Live, Reason and Maschine. %99 of serious musicians are too busy writing songs and having generally awesome lives to get deep into the vagaries of cutting edge software features or licensing agreements or things they'll need to worry about computer maintenance for.

i don't get it, you are talking about performers. I am talking about electronic musicians (collectors of midi gears and hardware/software instruments). I know well many american rockstars are too busy taking drugs and having sex with groupies, too. But mine's a different world. So, maybe, due to language gap, i just mistook the adjective. Replace "serious" with "passionate" and "musician" with "electronic and computer based musician" and you'll get what I mean.

[myrna]

Now whether Reason 6.5. is actually sold more second handly than any other version, we do not really have any statistics that tells us do we? If it were so however, one explanation could be that the concept of RE really invokes some excitement and expectations in people (did in my case for sure) but at the end of the day, the current RE' s do not really add anything significantly to Reason. I have only bought the Polysix and ar bassline for instance. The rest is pretty redundant and useless to me. And honestly, i am not even sure that the polysix and bassline really adds something that I could not tweak out of the other units in the first place. But no regrets. Even without REs, I think Reason is Superb. Cheers

Of course REs don't add anything: you cannot compare those lite and quite simple (yet expensive) racks to monsters like omnisphere, pianoteq, kontakt etc. The day I'll see these ones in RE format I can say "now reason is complete". But, again, if you are happy just with Reason and nothing else, nice for you. The question is "why more and more people nowadays resell reason". The answer is clear: limitations (98% no vst support, 1% no midi out, 1% other).

[myrna]

edit: regarding "serious musicians", what I mean is not what you think. I mean passionate people like this one:

[FaX]

Now whether Reason 6.5. is actually sold more second handly than any other version, we do not really have any statistics that tells us do we? If it were so however, one explanation could be that the concept of RE really invokes some excitement and expectations in people (did in my case for sure) but at the end of the day, the current RE' s do not really add anything significantly to Reason. I have only bought the Polysix and ar bassline for instance. The rest is pretty redundant and useless to me. And honestly, i am not even sure that the polysix and bassline really adds something that I could not tweak out of the other units in the first place. But no regrets. Even without REs, I think Reason is Superb. Cheers

Of course REs don't add anything: you cannot compare those lite and quite simple (yet expensive) racks to monsters like omnisphere, pianoteq, kontakt etc. The day I'll see these ones in RE format I can say "now reason is complete". But, again, if you are happy just with Reason and nothing else, nice for you. The question is "why more and more people nowadays resell reason". The answer is clear: limitations (98% no vst support, 1% no midi out, 1% other).

To say they don't add anything is an outright lie - the Softube Re's bring an awful lot and Polar does some very clever granular tricks with loop mod and buffer modulation input. Etch Red is hardly some some half assed attempt at a Rack extension either and all of them integrate perfectly with Combinators and CV gate patching so they bring more to the table than a single device purely due to the modular nature of Reason itself.
If I wanted the Kontakt sound library I'd buy contact and Omnisphere is not the be all and end all of music making.
Quite frankly I still prefer the sound of a lot of hardware synths to VSTi's to this day but I don't spend my life bitching about it in developer forums.

[FaX]

in 2003 vst was still a baby. It's 2012, i don't see how a serious musician could manage without vst plugins, apart ultraorthodox "purists", minimalists or similar.
Regardin AU and AAX those are only derivative copycat's vst versions for apple ("we are different" bullshit) and protools ("we are protools"). Stupid "we are better" policies, not useful and negative for the end user.

Do you know many serious musicians? I know many top notch engineers and musicians (big enough to play major American festivals, appear on national TV, etc.) who rarely reach beyond stock Pro Tools plugs in the studio and who have steadily invested in hardware synths/keyboards and effects over software. The complexity of a computer system is something a lot of people are still hesitant to bring to a stage unless it's completely necessary (which, in turn, means they don't use much of it in the studio). I saw some of the most buzzed about young bands/acts in the world this weekend - Grimes, Purity Ring, Danny Brown, Hot Chip, Oneohtrix Point Never - and you'd be amazed how few laptops were in sight.

The only software I see prominent musicians in my area using heavily is complete platforms like Live, Reason and Maschine. %99 of serious musicians are too busy writing songs and having generally awesome lives to get deep into the vagaries of cutting edge software features or licensing agreements or things they'll need to worry about computer maintenance for.

I have several friends who still use 100% hardware from start to finish production wise and they churn out some damn fine recordings to boot I might add.

[saturdaysaint]

i don't get it, you are talking about performers. I am talking about electronic musicians (collectors of midi gears and hardware/software instruments). I know well many american rockstars are too busy taking drugs and having sex with groupies, too. But mine's a different world. So, maybe, due to language gap, i just mistook the adjective. Replace "serious" with "passionate" and "musician" with "electronic and computer based musician" and you'll get what I mean.

Hey, I was talking about electronic musicians who record on computers, too. Performing musicians are the most prominent and influential musicians so I don't think it's a small matter that most of them - even electronic artists - still lean on hardware live and in the studio, and %90 of the software they use is a part of an integrated/all-in-one system. 9 times out of 10, if I hear interesting synth sounds on a record (Ellen Allien and Sufjan Stevens are recent ones I've looked up), I find out that it was a hardware synth.

The failure to see/hear VSTs prominently on stage and records is pretty remarkable since musicians have historically been quick to adopt new technologies, from the electric guitar to the turntable (and then systems like Serrato/Final Scratch) to the synth and sampler in the last 50 years. Plug-ins are fun but are surprisingly inconsequential to modern music in practice. Their success in the market and their absence on stage indicates that they've found a successful niche with soundtrack guys and hobbyists/dabblers.

[myrna]

Now whether Reason 6.5. is actually sold more second handly than any other version, we do not really have any statistics that tells us do we? If it were so however, one explanation could be that the concept of RE really invokes some excitement and expectations in people (did in my case for sure) but at the end of the day, the current RE' s do not really add anything significantly to Reason. I have only bought the Polysix and ar bassline for instance. The rest is pretty redundant and useless to me. And honestly, i am not even sure that the polysix and bassline really adds something that I could not tweak out of the other units in the first place. But no regrets. Even without REs, I think Reason is Superb. Cheers

Of course REs don't add anything: you cannot compare those lite and quite simple (yet expensive) racks to monsters like omnisphere, pianoteq, kontakt etc. The day I'll see these ones in RE format I can say "now reason is complete". But, again, if you are happy just with Reason and nothing else, nice for you. The question is "why more and more people nowadays resell reason". The answer is clear: limitations (98% no vst support, 1% no midi out, 1% other).

To say they don't add anything is an outright lie - the Softube Re's bring an awful lot and Polar does some very clever granular tricks with loop mod and buffer modulation input. Etch Red is hardly some some half assed attempt at a Rack extension either and all of them integrate perfectly with Combinators and CV gate patching so they bring more to the table than a single device purely due to the modular nature of Reason itself.
If I wanted the Kontakt sound library I'd buy contact and Omnisphere is not the be all and end all of music making.
Quite frankly I still prefer the sound of a lot of hardware synths to VSTi's to this day but I don't spend my life bitching about it in developer forums.

again my mistake (language barrier). I don't mean "for me they add nothing", i mean "if you think they add nothing maybe it is because they are lite and simple add ons, internal reason addons. Try omnisphere, or pianoteq and then tell me if reason can reproduce those monster's sounds". Polar can do wonderful things, but remains within reason.

[Trakstar]

I wonder which will be the first to flop given all these new native file formats which are now popping up, and steinberg have moved over to VST3 so I dont think there is much future left for the ancient 2.4 format. AAx, prochannel modules, RE's, looks to me like a new patterns starting. I think I heard they doing away with the RTAS format eventually in favor of AAX, so could this be the way everything ends up going. I really do wonder???

[headquest]

Interesting point. But most instruments/effects can be released as a single product in most of those formats. Re though requires a rework, or even a complete rethink, so as such it requires more effort for a developer who is already committed to the other formats and can release those as a single product.

If the market is flooded with lots of Re devices, then there are only so many Reason users to purchase them, and limited demand for some devices will not justify the work put into them in terms of financial return. On the other hand, if there are only a few Re products developed those will no doubt have some success, but the format/platform itself will be only a minor success.

And what happens about presets? How many Re products so far included presets that made use of the other Reason devices? For example, the presets that Propellerhead include for their own devices tend to be wrapped in combinators with multiple devices, using the creative benefits of Reason's routing. How about Re products - have the developers (so far) taken the time to create decent effects patches that integrate their Re product with the rest of the rack...? Or is it just up to the users to work all that out for themselves?