KVR Audio

ducter · Post by **ducter** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:51 pm

About five years ago I was working on a new track that didn't have the same "punch" as some others I was doing at the same time.

That was a bit strange as the "bedrock" of the track was exactly the same kick drum sample and bass synth I had used and substituted in the rythmn section in a previous track.

Happily for me I had the inspiration to zoom in on the two tracks in question and I quickly found the problem.

In the preceding "punchy" track both the kick and bass were aligned and their wavelengths were both taking off in a positive direction. Their Attacks were in phase.

With the track that lacked the same "punch" the kick and bass were aligned but the bass took off in a negative direction rel ative to the kick drum's waveform. they were out of phase and their attacks were out of phase.

I inverted the phase on the bass and pesto, the "punch" was back.

Since then I have when time allows, I always try to zoom in to see if the attacks are first, aligned and to see if the attacks are in phase. In general I have chosen to have everything taking off in a positive direction, or "up" vis à vis the zero line.

I have found it makes an incredible difference to the overall dynamics of the project. It is my first bit of "cleaning up" to do be before any other treatments.

There have been quite a few times where bass guitars, electric guitar and microphone recordings have attacks that are taking off in the opposite direction (negative or down vis à vis the zero line. When all the tracks are aligned and the attacks are taking off in the same phase direction, the overall dynamics of the project is unbeatable.

The way I see it is that the loudspeakers are not asked to try to move in two directions at the same time and losing dynamics, every sound is in sync and moving in the same direction.

Then you add plug-ins and depending on the "quality" of the timebase correction we overcome the probelms inherent in digital treatments, where the timing gets screwed up by the inherent delays due to the computations necessary to do their work.

It is interesting to record the results of some of the stereo plug-ins, especially the stereo instruments and synths. In the past I have heard some be out of phase, it is always worth checking up on.

Keeping your instruments mono with mono treatments is the easiest way of avoiding phase problems.

reds91 · Post by **reds91** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:25 am

Interesting... So how could we check this in an all digital Midi note electronic track?

dalor · Post by **dalor** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:07 am

Funny that I had a similar experience JUST yesterday. Kick and Bass didn't wanna gel, I just inverted the phase of the bass and it did the trick (it's almost unnoticeable, maybe even a placebo effect but to my ears it works!).

jam92189 · Post by **jam92189** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:41 am

phase is very important especially with samples. I work with recorded audio and I always check the phase of everything to make sure nothing is getting in the way of the full sound.

DuX · Post by **DuX** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:05 am

When you have two instruments "fighting" for the same frequency space, like bass and kick, for example, it's always worth checking first if they sound better with reversed phase on one of them, before reaching for EQ or compressor.

VitaminD · Post by **VitaminD** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:28 am

How are you checking the Phase? In a positive direction?

jam92189 · Post by **jam92189** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:54 am

DuX wrote:When you have two instruments "fighting" for the same frequency space, like bass and kick, for example, it's always worth checking first if they sound better with reversed phase on one of them, before reaching for EQ or compressor.

Its very very true

jam92189 · Post by **jam92189** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:55 am

VitaminD wrote:How are you checking the Phase? In a positive direction?

use a phase switch in reaper they have one for every channel. I think in cubase to. or use meldaproduction one its by far one of the best out there

zeep · Post by **zeep** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:53 am

Interesting. I'm going to try this one too.

quayquay17 · Post by **quayquay17** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:06 am

It's not inverting phase!
It's inverting polarity

Phase is position and time, polarity is up or down.
Moving the start time of a sample changes the phase, clicking the phase switch on a mixer inverts polarity.
The first is changing playback and time, the second doesn't alter time, just polarity.

I know.. semantics, but before you

there IS a difference!

jam92189 · Post by **jam92189** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:30 am

Yes but like I said melda but can change phase and time. Voxengo has a great one to

ducter · Post by **ducter** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:52 am

DuX wrote:When you have two instruments "fighting" for the same frequency space, like bass and kick, for example, it's always worth checking first if they sound better with reversed phase on one of them, before reaching for EQ or compressor.

There is still a danger that you kill the dynamics by putting the attacks out of phase with each other.

They could be "fighting" for the same space, but treating it with an EQ then compensating for the delay will leave your dynamics in place, but the overall power of the combined sounds will be affected by the amount and largeness of the Q of the EQ one uses.

Yes it is polarity in the absolute sense when you flip positive for negative, it's an 180 degree shift. (out of the possible 360 degrees like a circle you are back to the same indentical phase as the original. All the delay can be expressed in degrees phase rotation especially when identical or closely related sounds are used.

Good phase relationships (mike placements) make for great dynamics and a real "punch" in your projects.

Krakatau · Post by **Krakatau** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:44 am

great topic ...perhaps it deserves to by sticky !

ducter · Post by **ducter** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:25 pm

Krakatau wrote:great topic ...perhaps it deserves to by sticky !

Thanks,

One thing I forgot to mention is it pays to take a look at the stereo plug-ins and virtual instruments just to see if things aren't reversed in their polarity.

I remember hearing the result of an audiosuite treatment that sure sounded out of phase and when I recorded it to an empty stereo track, loand behold left and right were 180° out of phase. If I had panned the stereo tighter I would have lost volume not gained, and if I had to deliver a mono mix to a radio or TV then it would disappeared altogether.

Just record to empty/new stereo track and zoom in to take a closer look.

Dean Aka Nekro · Post by **Dean Aka Nekro** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:44 pm

Phase relationships between multi-tracked instruments is everything, Perhaps the most important thing I do my absolute best to use to my advantage whilst choosing microphone placement. It can and does so much more than any amount of equalization can not. Sticky is a good call as it is so crucial, Luckily there are tools to help, Not just a simple polarity flip but actual full phase rotation...Should be an essential in every engineers plug-ins folder and also toolbag (my case a little labs IBP but I only have one of them so it does not fix/can not fix everything)

What ^Krakatau^ said +1

Dean

Are phase relationships the key to a great mix?