Are phase relationships the key to a great mix?

[ducter]

The cool thing about having DAWs that is very powerful is the ability to see and correct any problems by slipping or "flipping" the offending track.

I have had recordings of guitars through DIs that one day were positive and the next time with a different guitar were negative through the same set-up. I still can't tell you why.

Always best to take a little zoom in to check up on things.

Quite a while ago I visited a studio where their main reference speakers leads were reversed and they were monitoring "out of phase".

I corrected it for them and they immediately noticed how much better the voice and kick sounded.

Another time it was the return from vintage reverb unit that again the leads on the patch were again reversed, sinister little problem as the return pans were hard left and right but hearable as it was used on the lead vocal in a quiet track.

[Trakstar]

thats why most professional studios use multiple sets of active monitors and sub woofer sets, in fact which studio was it, thats a pretty amatuer thing to be doing, especially if you are in the music business for a living

[ducter]

It was a "semi-pro" studio musicians that occasionally did sessions for other people, don't think it exists anymore, but it would indiscreet for me to give out the name.

Out of phase listening is not exclusive to studios, I have gently corrected some friends hi-fi systems, experienced an out of phase film theatre (not a pleasant experience) and my local DVD rental guy's speakers in the ceiling are wired out of phase. I always try to make my selection as quickly as possible. Even my kids notice the sound is "weird".

Supermarkets! It make the musak even more intolerable. Sometimes in the aisles when you get to the centre point where you hear the two speakers equally it does my head in. I don't know about you but it makes me feel slightly nauseous.

In any cases most people can't put there finger on it, but it disturbs them.
When you correct it, then always say it is better, and something was bugging them.

[quayquay17]

+1 for sticky.
Really does make or break a mix.

[zeep]

Whats a good plugin to switch polarities? Most hosts come with the ability to shift phase, but polarity, i dunno.

[quayquay17]

The "phase" switch on a mixer or in a DAW is a polarity switch.

[Dean Aka Nekro]

zeep, I use any of these and all do the job, Some free and some pay PC & MAC:

Waves InPhase PC & MAC
Voxengo PHA979 2 PC & MAC
Variety Of Sound preFIX PC VST
BetaBugs PhaseBug PC VST
Audiocation Phase PC VST

UAD Only:

UAD Little Laps IBP In Between Phase

Dead but was great:

TriTone Digital PhaseTone PC/MAC
Requires Pluggo runtime, Not available anywhere and nor is the future of Pluggo Runtime Despite being a M4L user it still gets my goat

Hope that helps, I may well be unaware of others so please add more plus information so we can haas sticky

Cheers

Dean

[zeep]

That's what i thought, but someone here just said it's not so i began to doubt if i understood it well.

Edit: Dean, thanks. But then Live's own Utility plugin should be good enough i figure. It has separate L/R phase inversion switches. I just have to click them both for polarity switching.

[Dean Aka Nekro]

Same meaning...but all I know is that shifting "phasing" issues only are reffered to when talking about the relationship of at least two source signals or source sounds against the other and that it is easily dealt with via allpass filters of differing orders to put it right ITB or out the box with that great little, little labs box. Thats as simple as I can do
So a fair chance I might be wrong for some technical reason(s) which I would gladly be corrected on

[Dean Aka Nekro]

That's what i thought, but someone here just said it's not so i began to doubt if i understood it well.

Edit: Dean, thanks. But then Live's own Utility plugin should be good enough i figure. It has separate L/R phase inversion switches. I just have to click them both for polarity switching.

Yeah utility is good, Live man myself dude. It should take care of most problems You may encounter. When I have 16 microphones on a drumkit (well I have not partaken in such for awhile) it can get abit more so as many possible options are the more welcome. Although as said as much of an arse ache it can be it can also at the same time do equalization jobs at source so total like 3 mics on a speaker cabinet is great. Pair of Beyer DTs on to set them just right (subjective this part obviously) and perhaps some hpf on either/or desk/mic and there is the sound right there without flapping with aload of dyanamics and EQ/filtering plug-ins

Peace

[jam92189]

Phase relationships between multi-tracked instruments is everything, Perhaps the most important thing I do my absolute best to use to my advantage whilst choosing microphone placement. It can and does so much more than any amount of equalization can not. Sticky is a good call as it is so crucial, Luckily there are tools to help, Not just a simple polarity flip but actual full phase rotation...Should be an essential in every engineers plug-ins folder and also toolbag (my case a little labs IBP but I only have one of them so it does not fix/can not fix everything)

What ^Krakatau^ said +1

Dean

there are plugins that do that now but yes the whole point I was making is if something sounds thin and its to late or you cant re record it than check the phase. often its overlooked. even with in theory might be the best choices sometimes we got a out of phase signal stuff like meldaproduction auto align works great. it can be put on any track and can fix the phase rotation and time. phase should always be checked and I dont remember it ruining the dynamics for whoever said that

[Dean Aka Nekro]

Well to answer that I think/know it is pretty much fundamental to everything I do and something I would not overlook personally. I have not got a clue if it is an often overlooked area. It sticks out like a sore thumb the times it has been an issue, Everything gets checked regular in a summ/mono dedicated monitor here.

Did not know MeldaProduction had a plug-in which can take care of it, Thanks for that

I susspose what you mean is if it is a situation for example where you've been sent a multi-tracked session to mixdown and can only do what best you can do with what you have to work with? In that case Yes I have had it a few times but dug myself out it with the stuff I have mentioned except InPhase by Waves as that is a fairly new addition. Most times out of the times it has happened is when time based effects have been bounced/printed! So I will always ask for bone dry in that department myself

[ducter]

Try this experiment to learn about the destructive or constructive power of phase.

1. Create two tracks

2. Import any short audio file, a drum loop is great as it gives a dramatic result.

3. Place the audio file on Track 1, at the very beginning of the track.

4. Copy the File to Track 2 and after pasting it into exactly the same start time, use a plug-in to invert the phase, in most editors there is a function named "invert".

5. Hit play and you should hear NOTHING at all.

6. LOWER!!!! the fader on Track 2 and you will start to hear Track 1!!!
What you are hearing is the difference in sums of the wavelength as Track 2 no longer cancels out completely the Drum loop on Track 2.


This is incredibly important as it is one of the keys to recording and mixing.

Check that all my waveforms are starting off positive from the 0 line that bisects the waveform.

A kick drum that is positive and a bass that is lined up and go in a negative direction will eat up or destroy the dynamics. Flip the phase on your bass and you get the punch back immediately.

With a stereo synth pad if you are panned hard left and right and you are out of phase, you will make me and many other listeners feel ill, but your dynamics will be intact.

BUT if you close the stereo you will lose dynamics just like the drum loop did, and until if you place them in mono or "sum to mono" the signal will disappear completely!!

Delaying the Left from the right will enlarge your stereo and get rid of the "sum to mono" problem".

The only drawback is one side of your stereo will be a bit late. not too important for a pad, but a bit of problem for your funky stereo clarinet riff.

Pitch shifting works as well, a couple of percent and your stereo width increases.

Plug-ins can play with phase as they transform your sounds, the only real way to check is bounce or record to another track and zoom in to see the delay and if the phase got 'flipped" or "inverted.
If the phase is flipped check it against any drums or percussion to get everyone lined up and taking off in the same direction.
Your song will have the dynamics it deserves.

Recording Guitars, voices, and/or any source, even triggering samples should be checked zooming in, aligning the timing as tight as possible (this is a matter of styles and taste), and correcting the phase by making sure the initial crest are positive.

If you have a way of "summing to mono" through the master output, do it from time to time, train yourself to hear what is disappearing.

Keeping your instruments mono with mono treatments is the easiest way of avoiding phase problems.

Goggle "phase and recording" and you will find a wealth of info at your fingertips

[jam92189]

Well to answer that I think/know it is pretty much fundamental to everything I do and something I would not overlook personally. I have not got a clue if it is an often overlooked area. It sticks out like a sore thumb the times it has been an issue, Everything gets checked regular in a summ/mono dedicated monitor here.

Did not know MeldaProduction had a plug-in which can take care of it, Thanks for that

I susspose what you mean is if it is a situation for example where you've been sent a multi-tracked session to mixdown and can only do what best you can do with what you have to work with? In that case Yes I have had it a few times but dug myself out it with the stuff I have mentioned except InPhase by Waves as that is a fairly new addition. Most times out of the times it has happened is when time based effects have been bounced/printed! So I will always ask for bone dry in that department myself

yes I agree But sometimes when I am sent tracks and even when I say no Fx some times people just have something like a gate or something thinking it will help. but yes its pretty easy to do with melda phase thing. I have yet to use waves but doesent it only work with 2 tracks. I know melda has no limit on how many tracks you do this to

[jam92189]

What I do is i get my static mix and stuff in mono. just to check my stereo phase. If i can get the signals to sound good and seporate in mono with eq compression and panning then when I switch to stereo it sounds all the better.