Reaper - What's the catch?

[braj]

I'm actually on the verge of switching back to Reaper as my main DAW, I will need to buy MUX just to get what Reaper has by default regarding vst routing on one track, (of course MUX is much more than that, but primarily what i need it for to 'fix' S1). All the options in reaper may be overwhelming at times, but when you NEED a certain feature you likely have it, just you need to learn where its at. But once you do you can access it easily in the way that works best for you. Being able to record the output of an arp on the same track in real time, stuff like that where even with MUX I have to use two tracks in S1, I dunno, it all starts to make the benefits of S1 seem meager vs Reaper. Reaper is a powerhouse app, if only it had a decent groove tool!

[Astromann]

Think about it, users have been asking to edit multiple clips together for like 3+ years now and you still can't do that, so it must not be an easy change or they probably would have done it already.

Lawrence I dont know what you mean by this?
As far as I understand...you totally can do this, and for some time...many months in fact.

Simply select several midi items ,open them all in the midi editor
(Item Open all track midi in new midi editor)
this will open as many tracks as you like in the piano roll, then show the filter (F) and select the track you want to edit, you will see the others ghosted below that track in the piano roll...when you are finished then simply select another track to edit in the midi filter and that track will become active and the other tracks ghosted and away you go.
You can overlay, create...do harmonies with several different instruments at the same time...all with visual feedback and no danger of opening the ghosted clip with an accidental mouse click if it's unselected in the filter it will remain ghosted.
To me anyway this is incredibly flexible and quite well thought out.
You can also solo, rec arm etc...tracks in the main arrange with the filter.
Then there is all the channel flexibility on top of this.
Works great!!

[hibidy]

Now, who talked like this once. Hmmmmmmmmmmm, who would that have been? What little member would that be (churchlady voice)

[Astromann]

Reaper's MIDI completely sucks.

Sorry if this sounds harsh...but this is completely wrong, and completely misinformed.
And as for it being "painfully slow" I have never experienced that at all.
Reapers midi used to not be that great in terms of flexibility about a year or so ago...it is now really really good, you can do many things with Reapers midi that would be very difficult to do in Logic (and many other DAW's)
Its ability to punch in chords/scales and whatever else...plus do overlays directly in the piano roll by using the midi filter/ or open several midi items and the ability to mute/overlay etc...etc, do counterpoint etc...on several tracks at once in the piano-roll.. is %&^$$# GREAT!!
Logics progress is S---L--O--W...and its not that stable either, then theres the AU/VST thing, somewhere along the line I decided to move back to the PC, and currently run a Sandybridge setup.
I love Logic...and still do, but Reaper is my DAW of choice these days.
Reapers development is fast...in fact almost too fast, its hard to keep up sometimes, and to be honest I dont really feel the need to, it does most of what I want, so currently I update every 2 months or so..
Reapers midi (IMO) is better now than Logics, its customization is better than Logics, its envelopes (bezier curves and points) although good...are not better than Logic, Logics are nicer (at the moment).
I also still prefer Logics folder system, although Reapers is more flexible and will improve.
But generally...all things weighed up, I personally prefer it to Logic by quite a bit, its Audio is better..more stable, its routing is fantastic and its miles more flexible in how you can set it up and customize it than Logic.

[hibidy]

Two things though, reapers development IS slowing a lot and when was the last time there was a midi update? Not talking about some obscure fix or the like. I'm talking about a MIDI update/improvement/feature? 9 months? 7 months? I can't remember, but I know it's been a LONG time.

[braj]

Think about it, users have been asking to edit multiple clips together for like 3+ years now and you still can't do that, so it must not be an easy change or they probably would have done it already.

Lawrence I dont know what you mean by this?
As far as I understand...you totally can do this, and for some time...many months in fact.

Simply select several midi items ,open them all in the midi editor
(Item Open all track midi in new midi editor)
this will open as many tracks as you like in the piano roll, then show the filter (F) and select the track you want to edit, you will see the others ghosted below that track in the piano roll...when you are finished then simply select another track to edit in the midi filter and that track will become active and the other tracks ghosted and away you go.
You can overlay, create...do harmonies with several different instruments at the same time...all with visual feedback and no danger of opening the ghosted clip with an accidental mouse click if it's unselected in the filter it will remain ghosted.
To me anyway this is incredibly flexible and quite well thought out.
You can also solo, rec arm etc...tracks in the main arrange with the filter.
Then there is all the channel flexibility on top of this.
Works great!!

This is brilliant! though I have to click-drag a note to write over another from a different clip, if I double-click it selects that other tracks and hides the one I was working on. But that is not a huge deal.

[No_Use]

Think about it, users have been asking to edit multiple clips together for like 3+ years now and you still can't do that, so it must not be an easy change or they probably would have done it already.

Lawrence I dont know what you mean by this?
As far as I understand...you totally can do this, and for some time...many months in fact.

Simply select several midi items ,open them all in the midi editor
(Item Open all track midi in new midi editor)
this will open as many tracks as you like in the piano roll, then show the filter (F) and select the track you want to edit, you will see the others ghosted below that track in the piano roll...when you are finished then simply select another track to edit in the midi filter and that track will become active and the other tracks ghosted and away you go.
You can overlay, create...do harmonies with several different instruments at the same time...all with visual feedback and no danger of opening the ghosted clip with an accidental mouse click if it's unselected in the filter it will remain ghosted.
To me anyway this is incredibly flexible and quite well thought out.
You can also solo, rec arm etc...tracks in the main arrange with the filter.
Then there is all the channel flexibility on top of this.
Works great!!

All true but you still can't edit multiple clips together, only one clip can be active at a time. I think that's also what Lawrence is saying.

[Astromann]

Two things though, reapers development IS slowing a lot and when was the last time there was a midi update? Not talking about some obscure fix or the like. I'm talking about a MIDI update/improvement/feature? 9 months? 7 months? I can't remember, but I know it's been a LONG time.

Yep Agreed!
They seem to move their focus onto other areas and stay on that for a while, then move onto something else.
Personally I would like to see some more work on the folders (ability to jump in...like Logic, you can do that, but its not as elegant as Logics version...although more flexible.
And yeah Midi love...is always welcome...always
Cheers

[EvilDragon]

Reaper's MIDI completely sucks.

it's also cumbersome and painfully slow, especially when compared to DAWs as sophisticated as Logic.

Totally wrong. Reaper's MIDI is in fact brilliant and I would bet the fastest and easiest there is to write with. Single-click-drag to enter note and length at the same time. Single-click only will enter note with last set length. Single-click-drag existing note to move it around or single-click to delete. All with the regular mouse cursor; no tools, menus or keyboard needed. Any faster or better?

Yes, FL Studio has faster, better and smoother MIDI editing.

[LawrenceF]

All true but you still can't edit multiple clips together, only one clip can be active at a time. I think that's also what Lawrence is saying.

Yeah, I thought my comment was pretty clear.

[V'ger]

It's possible to edit pitch, velocity and other things in multiple items simultaneously.

Reaper's MIDI completely sucks.

it's also cumbersome and painfully slow, especially when compared to DAWs as sophisticated as Logic.

Totally wrong. Reaper's MIDI is in fact brilliant and I would bet the fastest and easiest there is to write with. Single-click-drag to enter note and length at the same time. Single-click only will enter note with last set length. Single-click-drag existing note to move it around or single-click to delete. All with the regular mouse cursor; no tools, menus or keyboard needed. Any faster or better?

Yes, FL Studio has faster, better and smoother MIDI editing.

This has unfortunately become the typical response about FL. Just a general it's better without saying why, which is particularly naff when it's in response to a list of specifics. But let me get this straight then: Can FL set note and length at the same time or does it involve more steps? Can it select multiple notes with just the mouse? Can that selection be muted with the press of a key or button? Does FL use tools?

[LawrenceF]

Reaper's MIDI is very good but it seems picking on that is rule no 1 for Reaper detractors, usually without much justification and based on lack of experience or knowledge. When pushed those who have both will list one or two niggles or features most won't ever use ...

Really? Most people won't ever select and edit notes across multiple clips or tracks in one editor? Most won't apply quantize to notes inside a clip in arrange without opening an in-place editor and selecting all the notes first? Most don't re-arrange and edit midi clips on the timeline without worrying about notes getting split up and changing the performance? Most don't want to cue a song from anywhere and have controllers chase so it plays correctly from anywhere?

Nobody wants to strip or edit controller data from multiple tracks or clips at the same time?

If that's all true then yeah, most won't ever use that stuff and yeah, they're just uninformed "detractors", not users simply wanting it to work like every other pro sequencer.

So... you have 12 midi drum parts on 12 different arrange tracks so you can have individual control over each part. Most people wouldnt want to select all the notes across all 12 tracks at once in the chorus section or something and humanize them, or adjust random velocities across multiple clips and tracks or slightly shift the groove of multiple random ranges, all at once?

One click to draw a note is "brilliant" but 12 x 3 or 4 clicks (36/48 clicks or even more if the clips are split up on the tracks) to do that one very simple thing is ... just... no big deal?

Fair enough. I'm very happy it works well for you.

[Astromann]

So... you have 12 midi drum tracks on 12 different arrange tracks so you can have individual control over each part. Most people wouldnt want to select all the notes across all 12 tracks at once in the chorus section or something and humanize them, or adjust their velocities or slightly shift the groove, all at once?
One click to draw a note is "brilliant" but 12 x 3-4 clicks (36 clicks or even more if the clips are split up on the tracks) to do that one very simple thing is ... just... no big deal?

I dont think anyone here (myself anyway) is saying Reapers midi is perfect.
But I have to ask...do you do a lot of drum programming Lawrence?
Are you a composer?

I think your analogy of 36 clicks is pretty off the wall, if I had to do that...ever... I would switch DAW's faster than you could blink.

I guess (for me anyway) its also about making making informed decisions at the start of a project..so you are not having tracks strewn everywhere...that you decide you want to quantize them all at once or whatever.
One of the things I have learned after 20 odd years in DAW work, is to make the decisions beforehand as far as possible so I am working neatly in a good workspace whe4re I can find everything quickly.
As far as your analogy of drums is concerned, this falls into this category ..personally I find apps like Addictive drums, BFD...etc.. are very powerful...and I do most of the main meat stuff in one module to keep it simple...say maybe Addictive or whatever, and even if they were across 12 tracks...because of the key differences..and or channels assigned to the drums, all I have to do is merge them on one track (if I am working on several) and edit them all at once..no problem, 2 clicks roughly (glue tool) and pretty easy.
I can explode them later if I need to (1 click)

Yeah I would like to see some "all at once editing" but to be honest, I would not use it that much, because with synths, strings, sequencers etc.. I generally have them doing totally different parts and I dont want to match velocity, edit several notes at the same time, unless they are on the same module.
And lets not forget the Multi timberal modules Kontakt etc...a huge variety of stuff can be done all at once, on one track using different channels for different instruments, so 16 instruments all at once for one instance of Kontakt, 32 for 2 instances of Kontakt.
These can be exploded to individual tracks later (1 click...if needed)
So for me anyway what you are arguing is not that big of a deal.
YMMV

Personally I would far rather see excellent folder implementation in Reaper, that could be vastly improved, good folder arrangements are a godsend in complex arrangements...and anyone who has used Logic a lot will know that, and thats why so many people say Logic is a good creative tool.
But Reapers folders are not too bad, and I can live with them, I have custom icons that allow me to "jump in" to a strings folder for example.(similar to Logics setup)
Every user has different wants...no one is totally happy with any DAW, but if it does the job then its good for you.
Regardless of wether you can do this...or cant do that...and lets be realistic all DAW's do some things better than others...and Reaper does a lot and its less than a tenth of the price of many other apps that cant do a lot of what Reaper does.
I'll bet there are a host of features on it you have never used...do you use it often?
Well I do..and I compose a lot, and I find new and easier ways to do things practically every day...so for me its good anyway.
YMMV of course.
Cheers

[LawrenceF]

But I have to ask...do you do a lot of drum programming Lawrence? Are you a composer?

Nope, I'm not a composer, I'm an engineer. But I do get other people's midi projects where the drums need splitting up and editing so I very often will do exactly that, split all the drum pitches to individual tracks and folder them up, and edit them as required... singularly or in random groups.

I think your analogy of 36 clicks is pretty off the wall, if I had to do that...ever... I would switch DAW's faster than you could blink.

It's not an analogy, it's a real world situation. You have say 12 tracks of midi drums (or anything else really) with various clip splits across the various tracks (verse, chorus, whatever, split up for arrangement purposes) and now you need to apply a global edit across multiple tracks and clips, say, a 25% quantize. What do you do?

- Glue it all back together and lose your arrangement sections, then you still have to edit each clip one by one in the midi editor to apply a 25% quantize to all the parts?

- Or... just go through each clip one by one on each track and do that, apply 25% quantize to 12 tracks times X# of split clips on each track one by one just to see what it sounds like?

Add up the clicks, and the time, and the effort.

Now do that in Cubase or most other pro sequencers. Marquee select all the clips in arrange (or just draw a range selection over a large part of the arrangement) and apply 25% quantize to the selected clips or to the selection range and move on to the next edit in like 5 seconds.

So... you can minimize this all you want ("Meh... I don't need to do that."). Not only do I actually work that way, I've been working that way with midi for a couple of decades. I'm not saying anyone else should work that way, or has to. But some people do, and most other pro sequencers I've used work that way... allow doing that... with very minimal effort. This is one obvious area where Reaper is really inflexible.

People have to get over the idea that this - talking about this - is Reaper bashing. It's not. It's an actual practical problem for people who want to work that way, and anyone who ever used Cubase or Sonar or some others probably would like to work that way when it's more beneficial (much faster?) to work that way.

We DAW users have this bad habit of minimizing or dismissing whatever our favorite toy doesn't do very well. Reaper is really great in lots of ways, but that particular part of it kinda sucks (imo, mmv).

[LawrenceF]

...do you use it often?

I use it when it's beneficial to use it and when it's not, I don't. Love mixing in it, hate editing midi in it.

If a mix project I'm given is a "midi song that needs editing + mix the result" project I usually don't use it. If a mix project is all audio tracks and it comes with a Reaper song file, I'll usually stay in it.