Are we close to getting plugin compressors that sound like real ones?

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Hi,

Sorry to jump in so late! Am I still welcome? I've done a fair bit of research on dynamics... ;)

"Are we close to getting plugin compressors that sound like real ones?"
Yes and no.

First the no:
Analogue compressors don't sound like analogue compressors. When we were working on the Liquid stuff, we discovered very fast that no two analogue units are calibrated exactly the same. Grab two unmatched 1176s off a shelf, pick the same settings, and you'll get a slightly different sound. This said, you /can/ calibrate them to match, although it's fiddly, and not everyone has the time to do it. Also, a big part of the sound of the units is their noise profile - a lot of (though certainly not all) software compressors abstain from adding in the noise. As it stands, for a lot of the classic units, the noise that they add (which comes right up in volume when you add gain, and swamps over the signal when there's enough GR) is a massive part of their character. Also, distortion. It's not strictly compression, and it tends to come after the fact. In designing Compassion it became quickly apparent that it wasn't enough to just add noise to the output, but adding noise (at an independent level) to the sidechain circuit was important too.

Now the yes:
There's only a finite number of topologies that will allow you to implement a dynamics circuit. You're attempting to achieve gain reduction which is some function of the input level, and it needs to be smoothed. Again, in designing Compassion, I wanted to cover all bases, so I built a generalised model of all the possible topologies, which was perhaps a little overkill. Does Compassion sound identical to unit X? It's a function of how much time you're prepared to spend tweaking it. It's not for nothing that there are >100 parameters on it, as fiddly as that can be, but all the factors I've ever seen in a decade of modelling compressor circuits are in there, and can be calibrated. In a sense, it's the same game as trying to calibrate two mono analogue compressors to match up - in the factory, someone tuned some potentiometers to approximately the right place. Roughly. Since then, a few of the capacitors have gone past their best, and it's all a little wonky now. But the framework is in place.

Reading KVR or GS, you'll see people gushing in droves about plugin X or Y, which for them has replaced some piece of hardware. And it comes down to this - they're making a statement that YES, these plugin compressors are doing the right thing, and have replaced the hardware. So the question is whether these people form a majority.

Our understanding of dynamics circuitry is far from poor - the existence of something like Compassion is (I hope) testament to the depth of our knowledge of dynamics circuits.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I'm happy to join in the conversation here if there's anything I can elaborate on! :)

Dave.

Ninja edit: And in answer to the question of whether there are software compressors that pass ABX tests against their hardware equivalents, yes. Ten years ago, when I was working on the Forte suite, the compressor was indistinguishable from the ISA130 hardware compressor, for trained listeners in a good monitoring environment. And things have only improved since.

Ninja edit 2: I /believe/ they haven't modified my DSP from Forte for the Midnight suite, so you can grab those, and ABX against the 130. Please note: there are calibration differences between the ISA130 and the Red3, and topology differences between the 130 and the later ISA modules (e.g. the ISA430, which moves the attack circuitry to make the circuit sound smoother).
[ DMGAudio ] | [ DMGAudio Blog ] | dave AT dmgaudio DOT com

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DaveGamble wrote:...Does Compassion sound identical to unit X? It's a function of how much time you're prepared to spend tweaking it...
Hi Dave,
I recently heard about Compassion for the first time and read many positive comments. While I'm not in the market for another compressor (for now) I'm curious about your statement. Do you have perhaps presets that already sound like famous compressors? Might be a nice way to entice users to use Compassion.
If I ever decide to buy another compressor, Compassion is at the top of my list. Right now I better focus on learning how to use the ones I already have :)
esoundz name: Helio

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Ah Xoc Kin wrote:
DaveGamble wrote:...Does Compassion sound identical to unit X? It's a function of how much time you're prepared to spend tweaking it...
Hi Dave,
I recently heard about Compassion for the first time and read many positive comments. While I'm not in the market for another compressor (for now) I'm curious about your statement. Do you have perhaps presets that already sound like famous compressors? Might be a nice way to entice users to use Compassion.
If I ever decide to buy another compressor, Compassion is at the top of my list. Right now I better focus on learning how to use the ones I already have :)
The Mods "Character" list will configure Compassion to take the correct topology and rough setup for a few obvious classics, but, as I say, the devil is in the detail.

Without tweaking, they'll have the right kind of character - that was the idea; either they'd pump the same way, or give the right kind of thwack that the originals would. Puts you in the ballpark, gives you the flavour. If you go through the advanced parameters, you can see how it's all working too. :D

And before someone asks me to list what they are - they're not /that/ obscure, and I really can't go there, or I'll end up in trouble. The Liquid stuff nearly spawned a class-action lawsuit - I'm staying well clear; so the mods are close but they're not fine-tuned, because it's not worth the grief it would cause. DMGAudio is small and not wanting legal troubles ;) So it's all the good without suffering the bad. When we do the preset exchange (its on its way) I'm sure someone /else/ will label presets as what they are. But it can not come from me.

Dave.
[ DMGAudio ] | [ DMGAudio Blog ] | dave AT dmgaudio DOT com

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You did the midnight suite for focusrite Dave ? No wonder I like them !
Don't trust those with words of weakness, they are the most aggressive

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DaveGamble wrote: Does Compassion sound identical to unit X? )
That's a really good post, thank you. I think there could be a another issue. Because the compressor sounds the same for, say, rock music, would it also sound the same for, say, a recording of whalesong? That is because some software compressors are better when there are lots of fast attacks, as with music emphasizing percussion, and another is better when there aren't sudden changes in overall dynamics, but instead, a shifting of gain in continuously fluctuating frequencies. So a software emulation may sound more similar for one kind of music, but maybe less so for another.

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himalaya wrote:I'm not really that interested in compressors and I don't have much expertise in the field but I thought I'd download Shy's examples and try to see if I can match what Shy has provided. Since I'm away, I'm working on my headphones so I may have missed a lot of detail, however, here's my attempt, good or bad (I have included the Algorithmix WAV Shy has put in his ZIP for comparison):

www.electric-himalaya.com/stuff/Compression_match_b.wav

I can hear a difference in the transient response - which I suppose could be further improved with more precise settings - but I can't hear the sound breaking up, which is what Shy claims would happen in a plugin compressor.

edit-typos
himalaya-definitely the sound is not broken here which confirmed my idea that MANY software compressors are good enough to be used instad of hardware ones...on the other side when listened on better monitoring system I can clearly hear the difference between your file and the Shy one,but it doesnt mean that yours is bad-just different,becouse it has less ambience pumping and same time more digitally souding clipped attacks on snare

its a pity that Shy is not here to comment,becouse its his testfile :(

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Can you point to which is the Algorithmics example and which is mine? No looking at the waveform please.
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design
3D/5D sound design since 2012

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himalaya wrote:Can you point to which is the Algorithmics example and which is mine? No looking at the waveform please.
off course,I believe that first is yours and next is Shy...

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Mr. Dave Gamble, Thanks so much for participating and for your insight. And, of course, for your great work. Wonderful plugins, indeed.

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DaveGamble wrote:
Sorry to jump in so late! Am I still welcome? I've done a fair bit of research on dynamics... ;)
Great to have your input dave. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the following ideas I have about the difference I hear between analogue and plugin compression. Not dependent on measurements just the old ears!


There are 3 things Ive noticed and not been able to get around with plugins:

Harsh attacks when shaping transients with a slow attack. Compared to an analogue compressor when you try to make a punchy sound with a plugin - the attack sounds unmusical. This I suspect is to do with analogue electronics and a signal being processed in full resolution rather than shaping a transient under a fixed sample rate using a digital curve.

Lack of low-mid power. So many plugins appear to not be able to punch the low mid in the same way the corresponding analogue processor does. Not sure why this is...

Lack of tone and colour. The compression of the plugin rarely can colour the sound in a musical way that adds to the signal like an analogue processor does-but I suppose some of that is more than the literal action of 'compression'. IE tube stages etc.
Also heavy compression seems to yield over-bright high end compared to in the analogue domain. Again I suspect the subtleties of analogue electronics too varied to be effectively captured.

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Rough file. I'll fine tune the parameters tomorrow (hopefully with some of your feedback). I can only upload mp3 files, but not wav.
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=11809032
esoundz name: Helio

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Can't tomorrow. Next week though. Thank you )

For io, it's set up for mic input and goes to ext dat currently. There is rewire but that portion's not field tested.

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Ah Xoc Kin wrote:Rough file. I'll fine tune the parameters tomorrow (hopefully with some of your feedback). I can only upload mp3 files, but not wav.
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=11809032
cannot upload wav to be downloadable for people??
cannot fine tune your compressors??
and still expect feedback from people??

hmmmm....I don't know what to think about it
at least for mine its impossible to help becouse I cannot listen your files properly without downloading... :(

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I see alot of that kind of comment. It's disrespectful. Some people have bandwidth limits at times depending where they are. His screen name is xoc. And it's summer.

What you could do is ask if he needs help, and offer a solution, instead of getting all over his case.

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HeavensOnEarth wrote:I see alot of that kind of comment. It's disrespectful. Some people have bandwidth limits at times depending where they are. His screen name is xoc. And it's summer.

What you could do is ask if he needs help, and offer a solution, instead of getting all over his case.
well,my sincere apologies...but I need to listen properly before any comment,otherwise it makes no sense
:(
if theres a problem to upload 1 mb wav, then theres RAR or ZIP for it...no need to use mp3 I think...personaly Im using http://www.uloz.to/
its free and without any limits
Last edited by kvaca on Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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