Reaper - What's the catch?

[Astromann]

This is one obvious area where Reaper is really inflexible.

People have to get over the idea that this - talking about this - is Reaper bashing. It's not.

I never said it was Reaper bashing, I simply said its not that big of a deal to me, and it isn't.
I dont owe Cockos anything, if I wish to change DAW's I will...I am not part of their team.
My thing is (as I mentioned ) I dont work how you described, I like to sort out where things are going to go before I even start.

Tracks everywhere are a bit of a nightmare especially in a very complex arrangement, its OK for basic hip hop or something maybe.
As far as losing your arrangement...well I first place an item in the top track and cut it where the verses and choruses, coda etc...are going to be.
I dont cut the midi tracks until right near the end of the project, if I need to...so I am not messing around with 4 bars here, 8 bars there, a chorus here, a verse there, but thats my style...others work differently.

It's an actual practical problem for people who want to work that way, and anyone who ever used Cubase or Sonar or some others probably would like to work that way when it's more beneficial (much faster?) to work that way.

Well yeah agreed...if people want to work that way then Cockos should maybe listen to them, but if Studio One, Cubase etc...do that...most of those users will be using those apps I guess.
I know if it was something that was high on my list, I woulds simply use one of those DAW's and not Reaper...simple as that.
But I am not one of those, so I dont complain about that..if I complain... its about other things.

We DAW users have this bad habit of minimizing or dismissing whatever our favorite toy doesn't do very well. Reaper is really great in lots of ways, but that particular part of it kinda sucks (imo, mmv).

Well yeah maybe...I dont minimize things just cause Reaper does not do it, I do minimize feature requests if it is not how I like to work because work styles are personal and individual.
Thats why people use different DAW's isn't it?
Reaper fits someones style and doesn't fit others, then they argue about, isn't that the way?
You know..if Studio One floats your boat...then great!! awesome, use it and be happy.
I personally find no problem with Reaper, but that may change in the future I dont know..I do know I am not married to it.
But for now the partnership is good and productive, however I am in a different position than you, your demands and wants are obviously different.
Cheers

[chipfunk]

haven't checked it out that much. but its very promising... and cheap

[liquidsound]

The Groove3 tutorial were great and I must say that I see reaper under a different light now and I discovered its power, for sure, but one thing is missing, and I do not know how to define it, and it may sound too generalized when I say:
What's missing for me, still, is the "Fun Factor".
Again, I can't describe it, but working in Live, S1, MuLab and others, I experience that Fun Factor, but not in Reaper

A great and really powerful DAW but I will not be able to to work and have fun with it.
But that's me. That's my catch.

[EvilDragon]

It's possible to edit pitch, velocity and other things in multiple items simultaneously.

Reaper's MIDI completely sucks.

it's also cumbersome and painfully slow, especially when compared to DAWs as sophisticated as Logic.

Totally wrong. Reaper's MIDI is in fact brilliant and I would bet the fastest and easiest there is to write with. Single-click-drag to enter note and length at the same time. Single-click only will enter note with last set length. Single-click-drag existing note to move it around or single-click to delete. All with the regular mouse cursor; no tools, menus or keyboard needed. Any faster or better?

Yes, FL Studio has faster, better and smoother MIDI editing.

This has unfortunately become the typical response about FL. Just a general it's better without saying why, which is particularly naff when it's in response to a list of specifics. But let me get this straight then: Can FL set note and length at the same time or does it involve more steps? Can it select multiple notes with just the mouse? Can that selection be muted with the press of a key or button? Does FL use tools?

CC editing is A HELLUVA LOT SMOOTHER in FL. Just try it. Why? Because it simply is, there are no discrete bars for CCs, velocity editing is much smoother because you don't need to click directly on the bar to change its value, it has several pixels of leeway and you can click/click-drag anywhere in that leeway section to change its value (also the bars are thinner so it's less visual clutter that way). This is definitely NOT the case with Reaper. Also, you don't really need to use tools with FL as most of those tools have their keyboard modifiers as well.

Not to mention automation clips, preset waveforms for envelopes, etc. So yeah, while you might consider Reaper's MIDI "brilliant", it definitely isn't the case across the board, and there are DAWs out there which simply do it better, faster and smoother. Get used to that fact.

[LawrenceF]

You know..if Studio One floats your boat...then great!!
Cheers

I don't recall mentioning that product, but it too has some midi issues. For me, between those two, midi editing is kinda like choosing the subjective lesser of two evils. They both need work.

Neither is exactly Cubase yet.

[Tricky-Loops]

If I'd have only ONE wish regarding REAPER, I would like to be able to edit several MIDI clips simultaneously.

For now I can use ghost clips (or MIDI reference files), and then I can edit all MIDI clips at the same time.

But if I had clients that send me REAPER project files (as Lawrence seems to get them), then it would be great if simultaneous MIDI editing would be possible.

[jensa]

This is not any critique in any direction but instead this thread made my try out some stuff so here we go:

CC editing is A HELLUVA LOT SMOOTHER in FL. Just try it. Why? Because it simply is, there are no discrete bars for CCs

Yep, I would like to have that too in Reaper.

velocity editing is much smoother because you don't need to click directly on the bar to change its value, it has several pixels of leeway and you can click/click-drag anywhere in that leeway section to change its value (also the bars are thinner so it's less visual clutter that way). This is definitely NOT the case with Reaper.

In Reaper, right click anywhere in the CC lane and drag over the notes you want to select. Hold down Shift and use your mouse-wheel to change values up and down. That way you don't have to be so precise with the selection, but yes it can be considered a mouse click too much when you just want to change one value. It was new to me, maybe somebody else is getting some help out of this.

[EvilDragon]

In Reaper, right click anywhere in the CC lane and drag over the notes you want to select. Hold down Shift and use your mouse-wheel to change values up and down. That way you don't have to be so precise with the selection, but yes it can be considered a mouse click too much when you just want to change one value. It was new to me, maybe somebody else is getting some help out of this.

I know that I have my modifiers set so that I don't need to hold Shift down and use mousewheel, though. It's still for some reason not as smooth as FL.


Reaper's problem is that the density of drawn CC events CHANGES with zoom level. That is simply inexplicable and unforgivable.

[h2ogun99]

Good comments all around (even with all of the passion attached).

I'm halfway through with my first song in Reaper. There's been great moments, and also ones where I was frustrated. I will say that 90% of those were more my lack of knowledge than Reapers problem. What I'm seeing is that based on your workflow and needs, Reaper (or other DAWs) will or will not be the right "fit", and that's ok. It doesn't make one bad, or the other great. What is great is that we all have so many choices. I think the passion we all have comes from the time, and the connection we get with our software. My fear was running across something I might overlook in during my trial. It seems some have hit those roadblocks based on how they work, and I'm happy they have shared those as I might have shared those same issues. I am sure I will hit some of my own and will have to choose if a work around is a reasonable approach. Reaper has opened some new doors for me, and others doors I was use to opening are harder to open. My goal is to weed out the human part and hope that in the end I have a clear understanding of what is and is not going to work for me.

As far as the "fun factor", I'm really having fun. There's the occasional obscenity screamed at the screen, but I write down what caused that, move on, and hit the forums or manual to see where I or Reaper went wrong.

Everything has a scale where we weigh the good and the bad. The end choice is not a reflection of who we are as people, but simply a choice.

All the wisdom I have received from everyone has been great, and I welcome more. The midi discussion is what I asked for, and I'm keeping that in mind. As I said, I have to weigh all of this out in the end, but so far I'm enjoying the journey. It's good to spray some WD-40 on me brain.

[LawrenceF]

For now I can use ghost clips (or MIDI reference files), and then I can edit all MIDI clips at the same time.

Can you do a Licecap vid or something on that? I must admit I have no clue what you mean.

Take 4 different midi clips with completely different note data in each clip and edit them all together (select a few notes from all 4, nudge them, whatever) using one of those methods, so I can see what you mean.

Thanks. Granted, maybe I'm missing a viable workaround.

P.S. Forget ghost clips ...those are duplicates. Use discreet / completely different midi clips.

[Tricky-Loops]

For now I can use ghost clips (or MIDI reference files), and then I can edit all MIDI clips at the same time.

Can you do a Licecap vid or something on that? I must admit I have no clue what you mean.

Take 4 different midi clips with completely different note data in each clip and edit them all together (select a few notes from all 4, nudge them, whatever) using one of those methods, so I can see what you mean.

Thanks. Granted, maybe I'm missing a viable workaround.

P.S. Forget ghost clips those are duplicates. Use discreet / different clips.

Actually it isn't possible with DIFFERENT MIDI clips, and that's what I've criticized. I can edit dublicated MIDI clips (ghost copies) simultaneously, but not different ones.

Right now I'm not missing it much, but if I had clients with REAPER project files (like you have them) then it would be great to edit different MIDI clips at the same time (and in the same window).

[Astromann]

You know..if Studio One floats your boat...then great!!
Cheers

I don't recall mentioning that product, but it too has some midi issues. For me, between those two, midi editing is kinda like choosing the subjective lesser of two evils. They both need work.

Neither is exactly Cubase yet.

Isn't that always the way!
The lesser of 2 evils I mean...thats kinda been my position, there are things I love about Logic, and things I hate (and they never get addressed)
I mean at least with Reaper the dev's are on the forums, wether they decide to do something about it is another issue tho...with Logic...god knows what Gerhard Lengling and his crew do or wether they listen, there are bugs in Logic that are over a decade old, thats what eventually made me drop that app.

That said...one thing I would really like to see in Reaper is a complete re build of the folder system.
What you should be able to do is select a whole bunch of midi items and hit a command "Pack folder"...then they become nested in a folder which is at top level in the main arrange page.
Then you should be able to apply quantize,transpose, offset,midi editing (piano roll with visual feedback), cc editing etc...to that folder and all the tracks nested in it would be subject to those commands.

A lot of this would fill what Lawrence and others want...and would be a huge boost to arranging and structuring in Reaper.
But will it happen? I doubt it...half of Reapers users dont know how powerful this could be, so its rarely mentioned.

Anyways I suppose the positive side of it is...at least Reapers dev's are not buried deep within the silent Apple offices LOL!!
So theres some hope.

One thing tho...I have been tempted to give FL Studio a bash, except that its supposed to be pretty troublesome with resources...I dunno.
But I love image lines synths and stuff, pretty awesome and creative.
Cheers

[LawrenceF]

Isn't that always the way!

It is. No single product ever has all the best features or functions... some people just like to pretend that they do. At the end of the day we pretty much all pick the "relative suck" we can comfortably live with since they all have some relative suck.

In total fairness, the Cubase and Logic bar (re: midi editing) is a really high bar that goes well beyond the kinda basic stuff people usually talk about. Those apps are really, really deep when it comes to editing midi and nobody may ever really catch up to them. The Cubase Midi Logical Editor is a one of a kind midi editor and I've never seen anything quite like it. I suppose Logic's environment is similar, a one of a kind tool.

If there is any real challenger to them on the midi front it may be Digital Performer. Don't know that personally (never used it) but I hear it's a really, really strong midi sequencer / editor.

I think it's probably safe enough to say that - most - higher level professional midi composers are probably using one of those 3 apps, Logic, Cubase or DP. I hear DP is pretty big in the film scoring world.

[Astromann]

I think it's probably safe enough to say that - most - higher level professional midi composers are probably using one of those 3 apps, Logic, Cubase or DP. I hear DP is pretty big in the film scoring world.

yeah I hear the DP is coming to the PC...interesting, I have never tried it..so I cant say, but if its on the PC and others are loving it I may well give it a go.
Recently I have been using (for video editing) the Adobe CS6 setup Premiere and After FX...gotta say...they really have done some nice work in the windows (resizing, customization and stuff.
I would love to see that kind of thing in a DAW (I know most of them have re sizeable windows and docking and stuff), its just the elegant way its done in CS6 that I like.

As far as midi goes..I think (I am guessing here) I think Reaper does not have flexible front end midi capability...otherwise they would have had Global Input Quantize/offset/transpose etc.. ages ago...instead of having to apply to items within the midi editor, that used to really piss me off, but I did find another way to work.
As far as Logic goes...well yeah its environment is light years ahead of anything I have seen, but its kinda eccentric in a way, and a lot of users never get their head around it.
So Apple has done their best to hide it (LOL!!), its folder setup also has some amazing features too.

Reaper does not have these things, but it does have other areas it is really strong in, and some areas of the midi I really like in Reaper (in fact better than Logic...other areas not as good...sigh)
A lot of people are giving FL studio a good rap lately (especially for midi), I may check that out sometime...time permitting.
But right now I am not fighting Reaper, most of the workflow is smooth and I actually have some fun working in it, so I'll keep an eye on whats happening and what the direction with Reaper is...and if I am not happy with the direction, well I'll look at the alternatives.
Cheers

[LawrenceF]

As far as Logic goes...well yeah its environment is light years ahead of anything I have seen, but its kinda eccentric in a way, and a lot of users never get their head around it.

I actually believe you. The MLE in Cubase is similarly avoided for some unknown reason. I guess it intimidates people... no clue. But the editing power available there for the composer is extraordinary and uncommon, and multidimensional.

It's far, far beyond anything Reaper or Studio One is currently capable of. People too often view it as a "I don't really need to do that..." kinda thing when it really should be viewed as a "I can easily try this..." kinda thing... that lends itself to very easy non-destructive experimentation with an entire songs worth of midi data.

I get grey hairs trying to accurately convey to people how powerful that thing is... while people say Cubase's midi sucks because you have to hold down a keymod to draw a note.

Go figure. It's all a matter of perspective.

Let me frame the MLE in a context that may be more understandable to some people here with a really, really simple example...

Scenario: Two handed piano performance. You wanna take all the notes from C2 and below and cut them or copy them to a new track for a bass track. No biggie. Open the MLE and tell it to do that, and it cuts or copies the notes from that track and puts them in a new midi track. Those kinds of edits are really just dead easy in a good sequencer and don't require any manual editing at all.

Anyway, we're getting way off topic. Suffice to say, I think those two apps kinda stand alone in the totality of their midi editing power.