Not even physical modeling.Aloysius wrote:Ok. It might be good for ... em ... Banjos or something.
Subtractive only
https://www.box.com/s/j5l9jqf3gs5nd5vqrg5q
Physical Modeling the way to go? (today's topic: guitars)
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- Banned
- 6129 posts since 9 Oct, 2007 from an inharmonious society
Subtractive only
https://www.box.com/s/j5l9jqf3gs5nd5vqrg5q
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- KVRian
- 1480 posts since 14 Jun, 2003
i dont think a banjo player would agree, and thats the other factor, how intimate the listener is with the instrument thats being faked. i know a lot of keyboardists think the alto sax on the korg m1 is perfect.
btw super distortion feedbacker works on anything, when you press and hold the pedal down it synthesizes a feedback sound.
accordion was out of fashion in the 70's, imho, well before romplers. had more to do with welk making it and oldies instrument. now theres a whole slew of people welking guitar.
atm synths are replacing guitars a bit. unimaginable to have a hit song without guitar for the last 4 decades or so now we have things like party rock anthem etc where theres no guitar.
but im biased against guitar and i admit it, all guitarists start off in the negative with me. excluding the ones that read and could possibly play a classical concerto for guitar and orchestra if there was one. but all the self-taught and, worse, self graded ones have given me a bad taste.
so i would love to see a decade or two where not all the songs are in e.
in one band i play with the guitarist is more of a blueser and didnt want to play "dont stop believin" so i mapped the part so i could play it using pettinhouse free dguitar and guitar rig.
while i played the part he held up his guitar pretending to play the part with his teeth like those guys do.
everyone in the audience was completely fooled and went nuts. apparently no need to load in a bigger sample set. maybe im outside the edge of the uncanny chasm and as simulations get better theyll sound worse because theyre closer, as mind boggling as that seems.
btw super distortion feedbacker works on anything, when you press and hold the pedal down it synthesizes a feedback sound.
accordion was out of fashion in the 70's, imho, well before romplers. had more to do with welk making it and oldies instrument. now theres a whole slew of people welking guitar.
atm synths are replacing guitars a bit. unimaginable to have a hit song without guitar for the last 4 decades or so now we have things like party rock anthem etc where theres no guitar.
but im biased against guitar and i admit it, all guitarists start off in the negative with me. excluding the ones that read and could possibly play a classical concerto for guitar and orchestra if there was one. but all the self-taught and, worse, self graded ones have given me a bad taste.
so i would love to see a decade or two where not all the songs are in e.
in one band i play with the guitarist is more of a blueser and didnt want to play "dont stop believin" so i mapped the part so i could play it using pettinhouse free dguitar and guitar rig.
while i played the part he held up his guitar pretending to play the part with his teeth like those guys do.
everyone in the audience was completely fooled and went nuts. apparently no need to load in a bigger sample set. maybe im outside the edge of the uncanny chasm and as simulations get better theyll sound worse because theyre closer, as mind boggling as that seems.
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- KVRAF
- 7872 posts since 21 Dec, 2002 from MD USA
I think if you are going to "fake it", don't try to make it sound real, embrace that it is "fake", and make it cool 
my music: http://www.alexcooperusa.com
"It's hard to be humble, when you're as great as I am." Muhammad Ali
"It's hard to be humble, when you're as great as I am." Muhammad Ali
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- KVRian
- 1102 posts since 30 Oct, 2005
u see - its synthesiser and not guitar feedback...Tony Ostinato wrote:
btw super distortion feedbacker works on anything, when you press and hold the pedal down it synthesizes a feedback sound.
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- KVRian
- 1480 posts since 14 Jun, 2003
indeed, at least thats my best guess there. certainly would make the most sense.
they sold well to guitarists who wanted reliable and predictable feedback, and to guys like jan hammer who fake guitar a lot.
i think guitar purists have more to do with why guitar is becoming less popular, the more you revere something the more your kids come along and say bah that sucks. everyones grandfather plays guitar in a rock band.
then again by that logic singing should be out of style too....oh wait it kinda is, at least singing where its not pitch corrected...
physical modeling of vocals, tough because everyone can sing a little so everyone knows the sound very intimately.
so maybe the race is to see if real guitar can be simulated in the time remaining where people still remember/care what real guitar sounded like.
i never really know what the next musical style is gonna be, but i do know it will offend those who play the last musical style.
they sold well to guitarists who wanted reliable and predictable feedback, and to guys like jan hammer who fake guitar a lot.
i think guitar purists have more to do with why guitar is becoming less popular, the more you revere something the more your kids come along and say bah that sucks. everyones grandfather plays guitar in a rock band.
then again by that logic singing should be out of style too....oh wait it kinda is, at least singing where its not pitch corrected...
physical modeling of vocals, tough because everyone can sing a little so everyone knows the sound very intimately.
so maybe the race is to see if real guitar can be simulated in the time remaining where people still remember/care what real guitar sounded like.
i never really know what the next musical style is gonna be, but i do know it will offend those who play the last musical style.
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Dean Aka Nekro Dean Aka Nekro https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=162100 - KVRAF
- 6178 posts since 4 Oct, 2007 from Escaped At Last
Boss have a new version of the distortion/feedbacker in the boost/feedbacker, Sounds alot more realistic than the old one but still nothing close to natural feedback
There is not even one amp sim/emu plug-in which works for me/my needs and wants. LOL at even the biggest of sample library/ROMPler guitars, They are all naff
If you want a good sounding guitar then just dedicate some time to learn how to play
I myself can not stand keyboard/piano players, Especially in most guitar based band contexts, Just dead weight crap mostly or pure key wankery most of the other cases IMO
There is not even one amp sim/emu plug-in which works for me/my needs and wants. LOL at even the biggest of sample library/ROMPler guitars, They are all naff
If you want a good sounding guitar then just dedicate some time to learn how to play
I myself can not stand keyboard/piano players, Especially in most guitar based band contexts, Just dead weight crap mostly or pure key wankery most of the other cases IMO
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- KVRAF
- 2707 posts since 23 Mar, 2005 from Detroit
Being a guitar player, if PMed guitar would sound good enough/believable enough to use in a mix situation, I would use it, but most guitars player can spot it a mile away. But if you say its a synth guitar or don't try to hide that it is, and you are doing creative cool stuff with it, then I am all for it. Just don't pass it off as real. That is one instrument that is not there yet for PM or even sampled/ROMpler. Some of the bass guitar stuff is, and I like using that stuff sometimes instead of my crappy sounding and playing Squire bass.
This, for example, I love this song for what it is. No doubt that it's not a real guitar. Whatever the Yamaha/Korg workstations use, if its all samples or a combo of PM. Maybe its an EP or synth sound run though distortion/amp. I also love the fact that many guitarists (and other remixes) try and cover that song but don't get it exact. I still like hearing all the variations people do though.
This, for example, I love this song for what it is. No doubt that it's not a real guitar. Whatever the Yamaha/Korg workstations use, if its all samples or a combo of PM. Maybe its an EP or synth sound run though distortion/amp. I also love the fact that many guitarists (and other remixes) try and cover that song but don't get it exact. I still like hearing all the variations people do though.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14739 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Well, yes - in this case it can be creative, even if it sounds like crap "in the first place", and I do like the renditions of fans using guitars.
Still, this Xhun Audio IronAxe audio demo looks darn realistic to me - as long as the keyboardist doesn't do fast arpeggios (here the tools lacks "dynamic" with automatic palm mutes below a certain threshold).
http://soundcloud.com/xhun-audio/ironaxe-the-line
So I can agree, if the next version would introduce proper mutes on dynamic play (like most sample packs, especially the often "crap" titled MusicLab ones, have), then we could be closer to the goal.
This is what I actually prefer on samples: the programming and instant availablility. But I don't like the size, the ram usage and the usability.
In the end, it's all down to how you play that instrument and what effects you use (especially guitar with stomps, amp and microphone). If it's working in a mix - why care? Nobody cares about Moog Emulations in mixes anymore either. Or "virtual choirs" and orchestras.
Still, this Xhun Audio IronAxe audio demo looks darn realistic to me - as long as the keyboardist doesn't do fast arpeggios (here the tools lacks "dynamic" with automatic palm mutes below a certain threshold).
http://soundcloud.com/xhun-audio/ironaxe-the-line
So I can agree, if the next version would introduce proper mutes on dynamic play (like most sample packs, especially the often "crap" titled MusicLab ones, have), then we could be closer to the goal.
This is what I actually prefer on samples: the programming and instant availablility. But I don't like the size, the ram usage and the usability.
In the end, it's all down to how you play that instrument and what effects you use (especially guitar with stomps, amp and microphone). If it's working in a mix - why care? Nobody cares about Moog Emulations in mixes anymore either. Or "virtual choirs" and orchestras.
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- KVRian
- 1102 posts since 30 Oct, 2005
trueTony Ostinato wrote: then again by that logic singing should be out of style too....oh wait it kinda is, at least singing where its not pitch corrected...
thats why I prefer bands like The Residents which never sing in tune
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- KVRian
- 1237 posts since 17 Feb, 2010
Hi Compyfox,
IronAxe palm muting damping is real-time performed through C1 key and/or modulation wheel (for pressure amounts). I didn't linked to velocity control because velocity is already linked to 'finger sliding' technique, so I think setting velocity to control muting, 'finger sliding' and dynamics all together would be something difficoult to conciliate to have a simple interfacing/way to perform.
IronAxe palm muting damping is real-time performed through C1 key and/or modulation wheel (for pressure amounts). I didn't linked to velocity control because velocity is already linked to 'finger sliding' technique, so I think setting velocity to control muting, 'finger sliding' and dynamics all together would be something difficoult to conciliate to have a simple interfacing/way to perform.
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- KVRAF
- 24411 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
But they play worse, much worse.Aloysius wrote:It's because multi-Giga-Byte sample Libraries still sound better. Much better in fact.
Pianoteq 4 has substitued all of my previous sample libraries. And then some. Because it sounds, plays and feels much better than any of them.Aloysius wrote:I like it. It's cute but no substitute imho.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14739 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
This is definitely out of the question. Playing the actual instruments can't be beat.
But what if you can not(!) play that instrument but still want to use it in your production? This is what I'm aiming at here... and to do some (unplanned) promotion for the one and another plugin developer.
But what if you can not(!) play that instrument but still want to use it in your production? This is what I'm aiming at here... and to do some (unplanned) promotion for the one and another plugin developer.
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- KVRian
- 1102 posts since 30 Oct, 2005
than u can use prerecorded loops or - if you dont find any suitable one - hire a real playerCompyfox wrote:This is definitely out of the question. Playing the actual instruments can't be beat.
But what if you can not(!) play that instrument but still want to use it in your production? This is what I'm aiming at here... and to do some (unplanned) promotion for the one and another plugin developer.
but question is if you love or need realistic sounding guitar...
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14739 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
I guess the topic is drifting away from the initial point, and this is "is physical modeling the way to go", or better said, a forseeable future application.
It doesn't matter what's out there (sample and loop wise), or if you can hire a player or even play yourself. Physical modeling in itself is an interesting concept and offers a lot of possibilities.
Example: Piano reconstruction, randomness, unpredictability, stuff like that.
Of course you can always(!) get a real player, you can always get more realistic sounding loops or sample packs. But sample packs are unintuitive to play sometimes, loops are "locked" and you don't have much influence (not even with old/discontinued RealGuitarist by Steinberg), and synths don't seem (according to the posts in here) to be not there yet.
I'm not trying to find a holy grail - I just want to give a different perspective on the market.
And yes, I do loveneed realistic sounding guitar. And to my ears, Xhun is almost there already, Vir2 is pretty much there (but overpowered), RealGuitar(s) are there (if you know how to apply proper EQ/compression).
If you know how, you can almost get anything to sound real. Or can you distinguish which drumset comes out of the tin-can and which one is a real set with modern productions? (exceptions make the rule of course - mostly low budget or fan productions)
It doesn't matter what's out there (sample and loop wise), or if you can hire a player or even play yourself. Physical modeling in itself is an interesting concept and offers a lot of possibilities.
Example: Piano reconstruction, randomness, unpredictability, stuff like that.
Of course you can always(!) get a real player, you can always get more realistic sounding loops or sample packs. But sample packs are unintuitive to play sometimes, loops are "locked" and you don't have much influence (not even with old/discontinued RealGuitarist by Steinberg), and synths don't seem (according to the posts in here) to be not there yet.
I'm not trying to find a holy grail - I just want to give a different perspective on the market.
And yes, I do loveneed realistic sounding guitar. And to my ears, Xhun is almost there already, Vir2 is pretty much there (but overpowered), RealGuitar(s) are there (if you know how to apply proper EQ/compression).
If you know how, you can almost get anything to sound real. Or can you distinguish which drumset comes out of the tin-can and which one is a real set with modern productions? (exceptions make the rule of course - mostly low budget or fan productions)