Physical Modeling the way to go? (today's topic: guitars)

[Tony Ostinato]

hey some people still think that guitar on the miami vice theme is real.


heres some yamaha vl70m pm guitar, a patch called "hendrix" :

http://soundcloud.com/tonyostinato/nothing-is-real

thats from a few years ago tho, today if i was redoing that song id probably use kontakt and guitar rig.



but hey, any day we wanna shut off the electricity altogether im still ready to go.

[izonin]

Of course you could use PM instruments - piano, guitars, brass... The question is, would anyone listen to your productions.

[kvaca]

And yes, I do loveneed realistic sounding guitar. And to my ears, Xhun is almost there already,

what to say more...I do think that they are on the very beginning and you do think that they are almost there...people may vary...but I dont want to be still on the negative side and wish them all the best

at least I think that this is the future - not the huge sample libraries, but instruments like Xhun - if not perfect yet...still deserves our attention

[kvaca]

hey some people still think that guitar on the miami vice theme is real.


heres some yamaha vl70m pm guitar, a patch called "hendrix" :

http://soundcloud.com/tonyostinato/nothing-is-real

thats from a few years ago tho, today if i was redoing that song id probably use kontakt and guitar rig.



but hey, any day we wanna shut off the electricity altogether im still ready to go.

nice brass sounds there,hope they are real

but no comment on guitar solo...I can imagine what people who know to play guitar will think about it

[Compyfox]

The question is, would anyone listen to your productions.

This is not the point on the long run.

hey some people still think that guitar on the miami vice theme is real.

Still sounding great though.

but hey, any day we wanna shut off the electricity altogether im still ready to go.

So am I. I can always smack on random things and call it "Percussion".

[tapper mike]

there was the roland super distortion feedbacker.

AFAIK without real guitar it still doesn't work,at least not the same way

sadly by the time the physical models come to fruition guitar will be out of style and the difinitive sound of "old" music, much like accordion.

accordion is out becouse arrival of cheap keyboard ROM-players...but what instrument do you think will replace guitar??

Midi Accordions are quite the rage with accordionists and they are much more expressive then a simple keyboard. Many have no problem shelling out 3 to 5 grand on a roland midi accordion

I often thought that the guitar would diminish in popularity over the last 20 or so years but it hasn't. I've seen and heard some amazing guitar emulated keyboard solos but they always come up short of the mark. There is an endless list of why's sampled or modeled guitars don't hit home enough for me. One off the top of my head is Unison. As an example There are 5 middle C's on a guitar set in standard tuning. Each middle C has a slightly different timbre due to string gauge, tenson and relation to location on the fretboard. When you match that with they type of attack (pick, fingernails, finger) and location of the attach you get a subtle yet wide variance. There is also intonation to consider. Even a "perfectly tuned" guitar will have a slight variation of intonation fret by fret. As guitarists we adapt to this "imperfect" tuning as do listeners the slightness of tuning gives the instrument a unique character which cannot be recreated by using a just or mean tone temperament.

I could go on and on. Those modeling environments that best recreate guitar sounds are specifically for guitars (variax, VG99) and yet there is plenty of glitchiness to be had from either. It's far from a perfect world.

[hakey]

Each middle C has a slightly different timbre due to string gauge, tenson and relation to location on the fretboard. When you match that with they type of attack (pick, fingernails, finger) and location of the attach you get a subtle yet wide variance.

Even with a sufficiently detailed model, the problem then becomes one of reproducing this wide variance in a realistic and natural way.

Rest strokes, free strokes, thumb, fingertip, fingernail, plectrum, plucked up/down, bridge/neck pluck position, string number, velocity, vibrato, slides, mutes, harmonics ... etc, difficult to see how this could be controlled other than with something resembling a guitar with strings and frets. That or tedious note-by-note editing.

Either way, it's not quite the solution for those looking to play a guitar from a keyboard (if that's the goal).

[Edit: my guitar only has four middle C's - who do I complain to?]

[xhunaudio]

Hi,

my opinion is that all features described above should not be considered 'limitations' in any way for Models.

The general rule is : if it happens in nature, it could be reached *exactly* in a simulation. This is the general PhyMod approach.

For example (it is NOT self-promoting, it is only to explain, really :), it can be eventually true also for other audio systems simulations) in IronAxe all 6 strings are independently simulated, with independent properties and with independent (unpredictibility) micro-variations. It is true when you say that unison in Sampled instruments usually don't produces natural results. But with models it is possible. And Models do not mean 'Keyboard'. If you use a MIDI Guitar to control IronAxe and rise the 'String - Behaviour' parameter and play a unison tune (playing te same NOTE over two different STRINGS), you will hear two (or three, or...) different strings sound (not only for the pitch, but for all the properties). And when you play the same unison tune again, it will sound different for each time you play it (IronAxe simulates strings micro-detuning over time - unpredictability again - all settable through that only parameter 'Behaviour'). It is why I recommended several times to use a MIDI Guitar controller for high realism. Keyboard control works really fine, but if you are looking for a detailed simulation, standard Keyboards cannot reach (for now and for the future) what a real guitar controller can offer to have parity with this instrument. There's nothing a programmer can do in this field.

About 'samples are better than models' - or even 'guitarists are better than modeling' (...?) :

Any hard-core computer gamer here (I really hope...)? Let's back to 1995/96...

People said:
"In 'The 7th Guest' (pre-rendered movie-based videogame) graphics is better than in 'Tomb Rider' (real-time 3d engine based videogame)... So why Software companies waste their time in developing 3d engines?"
(...So let's look 'Toy Story' instead, its pre-rendered graphics is better than any other videogame of that period...)

It is because with real-time engines you reached the possibility to explore, to modify, to empathize, to *live* the content of something. A particular feature/possibility you can't have in watching movies.

In Physical Modeling of Audio Systems it is the same thing. And today, real-time 3d video rendering engines surpassed ( also in photo-realism ) most of pre-rendered artwork of a few years ago, bringing/adding all the 'empathizing' goodness of a real 3d experience, to have the best of both worlds. So software companies did the right thing 20 yars ago...

Briefly, in the recent past the same also happened for PhyMod Audio Synthesis engines, and I think this kind of approach/technology will benefit of an increased and focused attention in the very near future from musicians.

(Sorry for the LOOONG post)

[Compyfox]

Touche with "The 7th Guest" compared to any 3D game of that time. Now look at current games and tell me some of them are not darn realistic in terms of animation, facial expression and feel (Darksiders, Black Rain, Noir, Diablo and Heroes of Might and Magic, anyone? Not counting J-RPGs here)


The only problem I have with your instrument, is the keyboard play.
Here I really miss something like MusicLab's brain. Especially their upcoming integration with Guitar Hero (toy) guitars for triggering chords and strumming. I've never seen something more realistic and playable than this. Except on a real guitar perhaps, or with pre-recorded loops triggered according to the chords you play (which is just not the same).

Currently, I see your tool as ultimate sound design solution for solo parts. Not necessarily for chord work. I also miss the up/down stroke interaction. As someone that is used to Musiclab's tools (which inspired Kontakt related samplepacks), this sure is a step back.

Then again, I admire the efforts with the sound shaping in terms of the pickups, the strings and the unpredicted behavior while playing.



Now... if the best of the sample world could be fused with the best of the PhyMod world - this would be a great revolution.

[hakey]

The general rule is : if it happens in nature, it could be reached *exactly* in a simulation. This is the general PhyMod approach.

So the physmod approach is pure white box modelling - no assumptions are made, the precise and complete behaviour of every component of the system is analysed, understood and simulated?

It seems to me that physically modelled synth are in reality arrangements of black box models representing sub components of the whole.

I recommended several times to use a MIDI Guitar controller for high realism

Which of the following can be detected/differentiated by a midi guitar - rest strokes, free strokes, thumb, fingertip, fingernail, plectrum, plucked up/down, bridge/neck pluck position?

[hakey]

Now... if the best of the sample world could be fused with the best of the PhyMod world - this would be a great revolution.

Hasn't that happened already?

[Compyfox]

For piano, certain strings and woodwinds, yes.

But not for guitars. I aim at the playability. And here, Xhun still lacks certain things IMO.

[hakey]

For piano, certain strings and woodwinds, yes. But not for guitars.

fair enough

[Tony Ostinato]

fake instruments can bring in listeners purely on the novelty factor. im totally guilty of that.

the brass is fake on that song, thats the whole idea hence the title nothing is real. even the vocal is faked, using vocaloid. the brass is wallanderinstruments.com wivi.

my whole take on em is based on being able to play things that i cant play and especially being able to play things live that i wouldnt want to carry around. i mean god bless those guys that still bring hammond organs to gigs but that aint gonna be me. not to mention the tuba.

but when i chart out songs and parts for this stuff i always make a score in case we someday get violin players and tuba players etc.

working with guitar players im pretty careful about what guitar stuff i do, right now its mainly steel string strumming and nylon string stuff using the free pettinhouse guitars, and i use their dguitar into guitar rig for the electric stuff, and i also just got orange trees lap steel guitar.

the justifications there would be steel string and acoustic are tough to get loud live w/o feedback and its tough to keep them sounding acoustic and not an acoustic electric hybrid. dguitar and lap are good for when theres 2 or more guitars on the original and we only have 1. stuff like that.

i agree that someday pm should be able to do it all, otherwise we don't understand physics at all. might take quantum computing to do a totally detailed model tho.

[V0RT3X]

In all honesty if I need guitar work on my stuff Id rather use samples.

Has anyone checked these libraries out?

http://www.prominy.com

I want their V-Metal & SR5 Rock Bass libraries + Guitar Rig <33