Physical Modeling the way to go? (today's topic: guitars)

[kvaca]

the brass is fake on that song, thats the whole idea hence the title nothing is real. even the vocal is faked, using vocaloid. the brass is wallanderinstruments.com wivi.

so that wivi is not bad at all,but I can play only guitar so I wasnt sure about it
vocal is funny at the song,too...now I know why
but you are rigt that for people which have no clue how particular instruments should sound the song can sound like "everything is real"

[HeavensOnEarth]

In 1994, SOS wrote..."Techniques and algorithms for modelling musical instruments have only recently begun to reach the level of sophistication where they can be implemented in real time (using DSP technology) without the aid of rooms full of super-computers..."

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1994_ar ... havl1.html

But then memory got bigger. Sampling was easier to do. And more fun. So everyone did that for a while. Now computers are capable of modeling all the different motions of a string, and all the different ways to put a string in motion.

Before it was impossible. Now it is no longer impossible. The same applies to other kinds of musical instruments.

Often overlooked: PM can also enable the creation of sound not otherwise possible to record clearly in real-world environments.

Then there is the next-generation of physical modeling: it is still in the realism phase, like painting was in the 1800s. PM's going to evolve, like fine art did, into impressionsim and subsequent modern art forms.

[kvaca]

Then there is the next-generation of physical modeling: it is still in the realism phase, like painting was in the 1800s. PM's going to evolve, like fine art did, into impressionsim and subsequent modern art forms.

I hope it will not take same 200 years as in painting becouse Im interested more about new "surreal" instruments than imperfect guitars in PM

[jancivil]

with an instrument such as winds or strings, if you're just modeling the instrument in the abstract, versus sampling a fantastic instrumentalist, there is just this whole thing you're lacking that I can't imagine how you're going to make up for it. piano 'touch' and tone is an illusion pretty much and you do have that problem of that traveling to a set of samples so I guess piano is the most viable candidate for modeling to get the win.

there are things in horns, trombones for instance you just need the samples for IMO. gestures done by a real master.

[HeavensOnEarth]

lol, it shouldn't take that long. The SOS review was for the Yamaha VL-1 in 1994, for which there was a limited software version included on a Yamaha soundcard, part# something like XG50. It had some really interesting PM models, including a vocal simulator. I don't know what happened to that development team in Yamaha, it seems to have been disbanded.

There could be more future in percussive sounds. Modeling the inside of a drum is more difficult than a string or air column, because it's a large empty volume, and the acoustic waves aren't channeled primarly on 1 axis, as they are in air-column and string models.

Also, perturbations apart from those along the main axis were typically modeled very simply, with something like a standard-deviation curve providing a small amount of frequency variation around the primary resonant frequency. With current technology, the acoustic models could be genuinely spatial rather than linear+. Maybe it already has, it's not my specialty.

[digitalboytn]

How could you not mention AAS even once when talking about physical modeling?

The AAS stuff is great...

Their stuff is serious and it sounds fantastic

[bill45]

AAS strum acoustic and electric are good emulations.I have trouble using strum electric with high gain amp sims.There's too much release noise.Yes, all the internal FX are off.I've tweaked the internal parameters.Same problem with string studio.

[kvaca]

AAS strum acoustic and electric are good emulations.I have trouble using strum electric with high gain amp sims.There's too much release noise.Yes, all the internal FX are off.I've tweaked the internal parameters.Same problem with string studio.

on real guitar you can have noise problem,too...and maybe thats why people use noise gates with hi-gain amp settings...

[lfm]

Physical modeling can be a great thing.
You barely need any samples, if none at all. You can have ton of control over the sound shaping. And if done right, it can sound darn real.

In terms of guitars, it's even more obvious.

The question is, with all these samples out there, which grow and grow and grow by each release (thanks to RR, variations, more wanted realism, etc)...

...is physical modeling the way to go?


Or are we just spoiled with samples and forgot how to "tune" a specific tool to our needs? I mean... people say that RealGuitar sounds "not realistic" - yet with the right EQ and VSTi settings, it's hard to spot that it wasn't played by a real guitarist. And it's only like 50MB of RAM usage (the samples themselves are like 600-900MB, depending on the used sampling rate).


Please discuss.

Maybe too much emphasis on sound - and less on playability - in the case of guitar.

A real clever way is what Line 6 Variax do - the full instrument, but you model different kinds of guitars or stringed instruments.

To play a keyboard like a guitar, brass or wind instrument is something else completely. Very little resemblance in the way to express something.

About brass and wind it seems it's not growing on the market, since breath and wind controllers disappeared from market - or are $1000 instruments.

I'm practising to be better emulating brass playing style on keyboard, but have a long way to go still.

Play guitar on the keyboard is the same level of difficulty - and maybe even more difficult. What makes guitar really wonderful is the expressive way you can control the string and tone.

So modelled guitar - get JTV Variax stuff - and learn to play some guitar. That's what I think is most successful to something even close to a true guitar sound.

[Compyfox]

Well the Variax is a special case - it's modeling different pickups (with and without hollow body), some presets also alter the strings. But else, it's not a "new instrument" within the the instrument. You have one guitar, and different editing capabilities for the pickups. At least to my understanding.


I kind of don't understand why Physical Modeling got overlooked over the years. I mean... these instruments eat less RAM since they barely (if ever) use any samples. Not to mention disk space.

This is what was a problem two decades ago: want more realistic stuff, buy bigger sampler setup to use more samples at the same time. Now we have Kontakt, disk streaming, etc.


I also hope that certain instruments will be available (and better) in the Physical Modeling realm (guitars for example). Piano/E-Piano is pretty much covered now, Brass and Woodwinds getting close... so yeah.



But it's good to read that there is no aversion to the technology in general. From what I've read so far... would there be suitable instruments (may they be affordable or not) for the user to play - people would rather use them instead of samples.


I think this is why Jamstix is selling so well. It's because of the brain, not necessarily the bundled samples.

[robogone]

Well the Variax is a special case - it's modeling different pickups (with and without hollow body), some presets also alter the strings. But else, it's not a "new instrument" within the the instrument. You have one guitar, and different editing capabilities for the pickups. At least to my understanding.

Even when it's just modeling pickups I don't think it works too well. I picked one up in a guitar store a couple of years ago and played it for a while. Some of the sounds were OK, but overall I just felt that it wasn't quite right, especially the acoustic side of things.

We're definitely getting there with modeling, but there's a lot of stuff that just doesn't stand up to close inspection.

[lfm]

Well the Variax is a special case - it's modeling different pickups (with and without hollow body), some presets also alter the strings. But else, it's not a "new instrument" within the the instrument. You have one guitar, and different editing capabilities for the pickups. At least to my understanding.

It's a little more than that, half a dozen acoustics as well, some 6th string, some 12-string, sitar, mandolin.

One could guess the different Telecasters and LesPauls are based on the same model and tweaked a bit, I don't know.

Reducing to brand and model, it's at least a dozen different guitars alltogether. 29 models including variations on each.

And it should by character model each pickup on each guitar as well and combining the two.

So I think it's very fair to say that it's physical modelling - nothing less. It's not an EQ on built in pickups only. How well they succeed emulating the real thing is another story.

From your comment I gather you are not a guitarplayer. Guitars are very different, both in playability and sound - depending on the wood and design of the instrument. And even the same brand and model are individuals sounding differently due to one piece of wood is not like the other.

[aMUSEd]

Well the Variax is a special case - it's modeling different pickups (with and without hollow body), some presets also alter the strings. But else, it's not a "new instrument" within the the instrument. You have one guitar, and different editing capabilities for the pickups. At least to my understanding.

It's a little more than that, half a dozen acoustics as well, some 6th string, some 12-string, sitar, mandolin.

One could guess the different Telecasters and LesPauls are based on the same model and tweaked a bit, I don't know.

Reducing to brand and model, it's at least a dozen different guitars alltogether. 29 models including variations on each.

And it should by character model each pickup on each guitar as well and combining the two.

So I think it's very fair to say that it's physical modelling - nothing less. It's not an EQ on built in pickups only. How well they succeed emulating the real thing is another story.

From your comment I gather you are not a guitarplayer. Guitars are very different, both in playability and sound - depending on the wood and design of the instrument. And even the same brand and model are individuals sounding differently due to one piece of wood is not like the other.

Yeah - if you have the workbench it can model everything, different strings, picks, positions, bodies etc. Not just pickups.

[lfm]

Yeah - if you have the workbench it can model everything, different strings, picks, positions, bodies etc. Not just pickups.

Yes, I forgot about that, there is some software you can use to modify a lot as I understood. If you really get into the deepest levels of modelling they made I don't know, but that is unlikely.

When holiday season is over I will check the JTV-59 out in a local store.

[Compyfox]

You folks are right, I'm no guitar player (even if I own a handful of them). I'm first and foremost an audio engineer, then comes drumming and/or keyboard.


Thing is still... the recent technology gives the me ability to "play" instruments, I can not play myself. And with Physical Modeling, it's even resource friendly.