Physical modeling redux - Wind instruments

[oldlibmike]

I saw and read with interest the thread on physical modeling of guitars. What are the thoughts on physically modeled wind instruments? I have an EWI-USB and currently am using the WIVI band product. I think their trumpet is far better than the Logic/Garageband samples I have. I also like some of the Korg M1 samples - not for soloing but in a mix they work well - I have the Patchman wind instrument variations.

Does the software modeling hold up to the better trumpet samples like Samplemodeling's or Chris Hein? What about Arturia Brass?

Any opinions?

I may be looking at some point to expand into better Sax sounds as well.

[Jace-BeOS]

I've played around with a Yamaha VL70-m and WX5 wind controller. It offers some very dynamic sounds but, as I'm not a wind player, I find it pretty awkward. I wish I had a breath controller instead, to use with keys. I've tried the iOS versions of WIVI stuff and not been too impressed with the "blow into the mic" breath control.

There's a free Reaktor ensemble for wind sounds that uses a wind or breath controller (I cannot recall the name of it off the top of my head) which I think has better realism than the Yamaha VL70-m, but that could be my own preferences and inability to perform the controller. It actually does a bunch of other types of physical modeling but I've not explored it enough as its very complex.

I also have an Alesis Fusion 8HD that has some rather pathetic physical modeling on it for winds. I've not tried to play it with the WX5, but it doesn't much ask to be experimented with. The model is boring and lacks much customization.

I'm most interested in wind and bowed string sounds, as far as modeling goes, and they're rather rare. Krakli's bowed string synths are decent, but Windows only. AAS Tassman has some ok wind models but they're not so experimental/customizable and maybe less realistic than the VL70-m. Reaktor's SteamPipe is fun for wind sounds (it also mutates into plucked string, giving away the reality behind the model used for winds there). Bowed strings show up there too but with less realism. AAS Tassman does some poor bowed stringing with an improvement in String Studio, but again rather inaccessible and difficult to program (but very interesting sounds possible if you can work it out).

Physical modeling needs a renaissance for accessibility and GUI. Right now it's just too convoluted. It needs to model the real world in its use, not just the under-the-hood physics. Give me drag & drop acoustic objects without the trappings of AAS/Reaktor synth program blocks. Use real world terminology instead of programmer terminology. Etc.

Developers apparently aren't interested.

[oldlibmike]

Yeah the Wivi for iOS is crap but that really was a toy - it doesn't have anything in common with their plug-in technology which is excellent. The iOS thing is sample based - and bad ones at that. The plugin is software modelled. Just wondering if they are as good as it gets for wind modeling or if overall, samples are still the way to go for trumpets and sax (assuming, correctly in this case, that I cannot play the REAL ones!).

[Jace-BeOS]

I'd take modeling over samples I just need to learn to play the wind controller better (or at all).

[David Carpenter Wind Core]

Modeling is good on Yamaha VL and the wivi pro. However sampling can be just as convincing the motif ex rack mount and roland sonic cell work well with wind and breath controllers check this page out for some great breath and wind controller freebies PM for patches.

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

[Karmacomposer]

My three favs for physical modelling of wind and brass instruments is Modelonia, Tassman 4 and WIVI.

I play them on a keyboard however, since I am not a wind instrument player.

Mike

[David Carpenter Wind Core]

This thread might help you get proteus working on win 7 others have had luck hope this helps.

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... w=previous

[tapper mike]

Yamaha discontinued the BC3a. Which is really sad but then again the sales weren't there. Once can't really emulate breath control. It's actually more complex then wah vs auto-wah

[David Carpenter Wind Core]

THe Ewi USB can be used as a breath controller with a keyboard. All you have to do is disable all note messages for the ewi with a midi filter. All the cc's pass through then put your keyboard on the same mid channel. It actually is more responsive works with less latency and smoother breath control than the BCA3 from yamaha.

Check the freebie post on how to easily non destructively modify the ewi USB to be a breath controller. It costs the same as a BCA3 and midi solution box and connects through high speed usb port. The amount of CC messages coming out of the ewi usb is triple that of the BCA3 through a midi solutions converter. This translates to smoother breath response and dynamics.

Hope this helps.

[lfm]

I don't know what's up with these breath and wind controllers, why so expensive?

Well, BCA3 wasn't expensive, but alternatives now are.

Catch 22 situation?
Too expensive - nobody buys, and nobody buys since it's so expensive.

Now for the first time I have a keyboard with input for breath controller, but nobody makes them anymore.

Looked at DIY but that seemed not so cheap either, once done.

But maybe expression pedal really does the job and that is why. I will redirect CC11 to CC02 and see what sample libraries does with it.

[electro]

Wivi uses some technology called Waveguide, not true PM. WIVI Brass are stronger than the winds which lack some realism.

I don't know what's up with these breath and wind controllers, why so expensive?

Well, BCA3 wasn't expensive, but alternatives now are.

Catch 22 situation?
Too expensive - nobody buys, and nobody buys since it's so expensive.

Now for the first time I have a keyboard with input for breath controller, but nobody makes them anymore.

Looked at DIY but that seemed not so cheap either, once done.

Petition Eigenlabs for a cut down headset version of their Pico
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may10/a ... rppico.htm

[Krakatau]

Probably a bit off-topic but related to the fact that i bought analog laboratory keyboard a week ago (and used a breath controller for the first time), i just discovered how Logic's sculpture has very handy options for continuous controllers and it's now a breeze to give some life to it wind instrument presets

Scupture doesn't sound neither realistic nor clean, but i assume a skilled sound designer might create some very convincing wind instruments with it...

[audiosabre]

Wivi uses some technology called Waveguide, not true PM...

Why not?

...digital waveguides constitute a major part of most modern physical modeling synthesizers

It's an extension of the Karplus-Strong method, which is PM.

On topic: layering samples and PM can give pleasing results. Maybe larger than life results, but that's usually the aim anyway.

[oldlibmike]

Modeling is good on Yamaha VL and the wivi pro. However sampling can be just as convincing the motif ex rack mount and roland sonic cell work well with wind and breath controllers check this page out for some great breath and wind controller freebies PM for patches.

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

I did check out the Synth1 samples - very well done but sadly Synth1 was a casualty of my Mountain Lion upgrade (VSTAU doesn't work and that I need to run it under Logic). Might check out the Zebralette sometime.

Does anyone use the samplemodeling stuff for sax/trumpet? Seems the other extreme from the Wivi stuff.

[chroma]

There's a free Reaktor ensemble for wind sounds that uses a wind or breath controller (I cannot recall the name of it off the top of my head) which I think has better realism than the Yamaha VL70-m, but that could be my own preferences and inability to perform the controller. It actually does a bunch of other types of physical modeling but I've not explored it enough as its very complex.

it's called 'silverwood', and it's actually pretty good. not as extensive as wivi and the sound is different but it works well.

samples probably could be better, but require careful programming, which isn't done very often. for example, i have wivi (full) and kirk hunter concert brass. if you take any random instrument (say, solo french horn), i think KHCB sounds a little better out of the box. but it's not playable at all using a wind controller. the expression you get with a wind controller is way more important than a small improvement in sound though.

could you get the expression with the samples? sure, but it would require a good bit of scripting, and it's already heavily scripted (and locked) to add other realism features. in particular, the original sounds are heavily layered, so the layers that are playing would need to change with the breath controller values - currently the layer to play is fixed at note-on, so a slow build is just not possible (fast runs might be OK, i can't play those yet

kontakt factory libs do not have this programming; you can get some by setting your EWI to output CC11 instead of CC2, and then the breath controls the volume some, but you still have the layer issue.

any 'regular' synth should have better luck with this, since they usually don't have parameters that are fixed at note-on (except perhaps resonance in a lot of older synths), but obviously usually won't sound as good playing realistic sounds.