KVR Audio

Karmacomposer · Post by **Karmacomposer** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:24 pm

OK, so I hear a lot of you complaining about this not being 64 bit and that not being 64 bit. I want to talk about this love affair with 64 bit.

I own TONS of virtual instruments and effects - much of it freeware. Almost all of it 32 bit and some of it VERY old - we're talking over 10 years old.

Now, I am running Windows 7 64 bit edition - so I AM running a 64 bit OS. ALL of the above mentioned plugins without exception run just fine.

They run fine in Reaper, Studio One Pro V1, FL Studio (newest one) and all other DAWs I own. They also run quite nicely in cantible and the free SAVI Host.

So, I ask you all. WHY OH WHY do I hear people bitching about 64 bit so darn much. In many cases people say it's a deal breaker if its not 64 bit. Why?

I get that 64 bit is maybe faster. I get that 64 bit can utilize more RAM. I get that 64 bit can do a lot of things.

I also get that 64 bit drivers have to be specially written and not all hardware even works with 64 bit even as of today.

I also know that I have a 32 bit machine sitting RIGHT NEXT to my 64 bit machine. I see no discernable speed increases to justify buying something soley because it's 64 bit.

Meanwhile, for developers, 64 bit is simply more expensive to program in (in some cases due to the IDE costing so much more) - unless you use free tools, of course.

I'm not sure if there is code you have to learn or special stuff you have to do to compile to 64 bit - or do you just have to be running your 64 bit IDE in your 64 bit OS and then compile to 64 bit??????

For example, I am ready to outlay some cash for a new language - but they want $1,000 for the version that is cross compatible AND 64 bit. The 32 bit is $150.

I have another language that is cross compatible (Mac, Linux, PC) and can write .dll's, so it can be used to create vst/vsti's (and it compiles to binary, so quite fast) - it's only $80 - but it's strictly 32 bit.

I talked with a person who writes languages for a living about the 32 bit vs 64 bit debate and he does not get why it's such a big thing. His languages are used to make games for consoles and desktops/portable gaming - ALL OF IT 32 BIT and not going 64 bit in the foreseeable future (again, due to video drivers, audio drivers, etc).

So, why is there so much whohaha about 64 bit.

Someone elighten me.

Mike

debra1rlo · Post by **debra1rlo** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:31 pm

anything below 64 bit is useless. all us pros know this. we can't explain why. it just is. like death and taxes.

whenever i hear 32 bit songs on the radio, i don't just turn it off. i smash it with a sledge hammer.

some bastard tried to sell me that cheap ass 32 bit gas for my car. i looked at him incredulously with derision. put 32 bit gas in my pristine sexy 64 bit car? the nerve.

don't even get me started on 32 bit video games. how does one expect to do a proper kessell run in 32 bits?

Echoes in the Attic · Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:37 pm

A 64 bit host will allow more than 4gb of sample data. This is very important now more and more especially with people using big sampled instruments. Using purely synthesis plug-ins or non ram hungry effects it's not a big deal. But now that most plug-ins are 64 bit, people naturally want to use 64 DAWs to take advantage of this. The problem is that once you switch you can't use those 32 bit ones, except with a bridge tool like jbridge. That requires a third party tool and doesn't always work great however, so it's better for them to just be in 64bit format to not need a workaround.

BDeep · Post by **BDeep** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:08 pm

For me, it's about future proof investment. I don't really care much for 64 bit as a technique, but the environment is slowly but steadily changing to 64 bit. Sure 32 bit works now, but I'm not sure which (compatibility) problems I run into later on. If I buy I 64 bit plugin now, I know it's at least somewhat future proof. With 32 bit only, you'll just have to wait and see if the dev is still around and maintaining the product.

Karmacomposer · Post by **Karmacomposer** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:18 pm

Echoes in the Attic wrote:A 64 bit host will allow more than 4gb of sample data. This is very important now more and more especially with people using big sampled instruments. Using purely synthesis plug-ins or non ram hungry effects it's not a big deal. But now that most plug-ins are 64 bit, people naturally want to use 64 DAWs to take advantage of this. The problem is that once you switch you can't use those 32 bit ones, except with a bridge tool like jbridge. That requires a third party tool and doesn't always work great however, so it's better for them to just be in 64bit format to not need a workaround.

What's wrong with DFD streaming? Kontakt and many samplers support it. Direct-to-disk streaming works great. Why the need to stuff gigs of samples into memory?

I own quite a few 64 bit DAWs and when 64 bit is a necessity and all plugins support it, i'll simply not run the 32 bit version. Personally, I think something else will be on the horizon just as 64 bit seems to becoming widely used and accepted.

Mike

braj · Post by **braj** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:29 pm

Future proof definitely, and so I can use the full power of my sampled instruments. I am using JBridge just fine, but there are little issues with some plugins. Basically 64 is another + in the ledger for a plugin, I dont mind using bridged plugins for now but I'm trying to avoid buying anything 32 bit when I have other options. It is just a gamble if you will have bridging issues or not, and I'd rather take any needless variables out of the equation. If you are a serious developer you would go 32 simply for your own future business considerations. I remember when Mac OS went from 16 to 32 bit. None of those old 16 apps are still used, no surprise that developers made the switch of died. Now when you choose to do it is up to you, but eventually you will or you will eventually go out of business.

braj · Post by **braj** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:31 pm

Plus some hosts like Reaper have ugly extra windows to deal with for bridged plugins, JBridge adds a barat the bottom, not terrible but I wouldnt mind hiding that myself.

t3toooo · Post by **t3toooo** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:54 pm

the main reason for me is simply ram.

i would say if there wouldn't be the 2,5-3 gb ram limit but a 4 gb limit i rather think about if i ever want to use x64 but win 7 and plugin guis are eating a lot of ram.

in my x32 host i only can use 2,5gb properly,everything above becomes more and more unstable.

for the workflow,i'm using constantly around 3gb ram with 64 bit,one reason for example,i don't like to cut my whole sample library's into little peaces,i rather load a bigger file and choose from there.

that's said,it's a breeze to use 64 bit

for that reason alone and i think music generally can evolve much better.

now,there is a bad side effect using x32plugins in a x64 host.
the plugins are using more cpu and/or they introduce latency but this depends on the host.

i still use x32 plugins and x32 hosts,depends what i want to do but for main production it is a no go.
personally i don't like disk streaming.

so it has nothing to do for x64 "being better".

t3toooo · Post by **t3toooo** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:05 am

i forgot to say.

yes a fast ssd drive used for disk streaming can be good as well but i don't like to scrub my drives this way.
i love my multitasking rme card,with x64 i can open and close what ever i want without being worried about a crash,because of ram (although i'm still careful

).

ObsoleteAcc99 · Post by **ObsoleteAcc99** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:07 am

[DELETED]

Echoes in the Attic · Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:16 am

Even for instruments that allow DFD, instances of plaug-ins themselves can take a bunch of ram. Like Omnisphere with around 150 per instance without samples loaded. Yes you can load many instruments in one instance but many (like myself) prefer to have one instrument per instance. Or other effects like Amplitube which use a fair bit of ram. In Something Ableton Live 32 bit, it doesn't perform great with over 2gb ram used actually. With 64 bit host you just don't have to worry about these things.

Karmacomposer · Post by **Karmacomposer** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:53 am

ttoz wrote:Mike it is SO easy to run out of ram in a 32 bit host and that's the crux of it. It really is that simple. I am currently doing (an admittedly complex) tarnce track in reason 32 bit and i am already at 2.5 gig, it will crash any second, so i have to open 64 bit reason to continue it safely (i only have the 32 bit version of live installed and was rewiring them, reason actually DEFAULTS to 64 bit on mac, but you need bit matched hosts to rewire).

BUT if you meant why does the plugin have to be 64 bit.. well the truth is, no one likes bridges.

It's true mate. If it can be avoided, if we can get a native 64, we will always choose that.

Sorry to say but the major players on windows at least are all 64 bit now, pretty much ALL. Mac is a bit trickier cause of the cocoa gui issue, but they are getting there too.

to put it simply, for me, it's MEMORY. if 32 bit did not have such limitations, i would have no problems staying there.. why would it?

OH, just for the sake of info, logic in 64 bit runs a fair bit faster and more efficicent than 32 bit. Doing the logic cpu test (a project at gearlslutz) i get 20% more plug in instances at 64 bit. This is a CPU, NOT a ram test.

20% is mammoth when we are talking 20% of a 3.4ghz i7! Note, this seems to be somewhat logic centric as most other hosts do not see a performance benefit,. studio one doesn't for example, not does cubase. In fact, some see a small dip, especially when combining with bridges.
(logic performs better than any other host in 32 bit mode anyway, so it's not as if it's shit in 32 and just the same as others in 64, it's better in 32, and blitzes in 64)

but for everyone else, i would say the main main issue is to be able to run Multiple kontakts, with a BFD kit or two thrown in and nexus, sampletank etc etc all in the one project

ttoz,

Then why do I not have ANY problems - and I can run 20 or more virtual instruments on a project with effects on many channels AND another 10 or more audio tracks, etc. etc. No problems.

I have 8GB of ram, but all of my plugins are 32 bit and the DAW is 32 bit.

Sorry. I don't agree. A properly working and optimized system with proper hardware is all you need.

Mike

hibidy · Post by **hibidy** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:01 am

If you are not running out of ram, you don't need to care.

ZenPunkHippy · Post by **ZenPunkHippy** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:03 am

Mike,

The general comments in this thread about using 32-bit vs. 64-bit are absolutely correct. It might be that you're working with straight audio channels during mix down and a few effects - I don't know - but for a typical electronic music producer (trance, dubstep etc.) who is running > 20 instrument channels of varying types + scores of FX plugins it is very easy to hit the (approximately) 1.5 GB limit of most 32-bit hosts. At this point, the system becomes very unstable and will generally crash.

64-bit hosts solve this problem.

Also, using 32-bit plugins in a 64-bit host is generally a major PITA because of the required bridge (less stable) and also because most / all bridges place a wrapper between the host and plugin. This requires an extra click to see the GUI after first opening the bridge. None of this is ideal.

Again, it's all solved by having a full 64-bit tool chain.

It might "suck" from a development point of view - wasted time for apparently little benefit 0 but that's just the way things go for better or worse (in this case, definitely better from a users POV).

Peace,
Andy.

braj · Post by **braj** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:20 am

It is not wasted development time or money if it helps you get sales

That's a solid bottom line, a serious developer should not shy away from keeping up with developments in technology, the opposite in fact is true, those devs that embrace it usually are the most successful and appreciated by users. You should be on the cutting edge and making the most of what is available.

Lets talk about 64 bit