KVR Audio

Bandits! · Post by **Bandits!** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:33 pm

Hey all!

New to the forum, I don't know well how this works, but I'll try.

I know the various functions of tonic (first note in a scale) and dominant (fifth), and all the other ones. I was playing with my MIDI keyboard and I found a thing...

Let's say I'm in C major scale. The root note is C5, and it is the tonic. So the fifth note will be the dominant, G5. What functions has the note G4? And the C4? They're the same (dominant and tonic)?

Thanks for your help : )

JumpingJackFlash · Post by **JumpingJackFlash** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:28 pm

Bandits! wrote:The root note is C5, and it is the tonic. So the fifth note will be the dominant, G5. What functions has the note G4? And the C4? They're the same (dominant and tonic)?

Yes; it doesn't change with different octaves. So, every C is considered the "tonic" etc.

Bandits! · Post by **Bandits!** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:36 pm

Thank you.

Just another thing, talking about scales and root notes.
Let's say I'm working with a C major again. Can I start the melody with another note? Let's say, E?

I was analyzing some MIDIs and a few songs start three notes up from the root (the mediant note).

JumpingJackFlash · Post by **JumpingJackFlash** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:12 pm

Bandits! wrote:Let's say I'm working with a C major again. Can I start the melody with another note? Let's say, E?

Yes, of course.
You can do whatever you want!

If you start with tonic harmony, then an E fits perfectly with that (as does a G).
But you don't have to start with tonic harmony of course, you could start with dominant harmony for example, over which you could start with a G, B or D quite effortlessly.
(All assuming you're in C major)

Bobbotov · Post by **Bobbotov** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:20 pm

You could also start with a passing tone. So in the key of C the first note could be Eb resolving to E. Or you could start with a B resolving to C or an F# resolving to G. The song "Young at Heart" starts this way with the opening lyrics: "Fairy tales can come true..."

Here is the sheet music for it in the key of Bb. You can see it starts on E natural and resolves to F which is the dominant of Bb.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:07 am

learn some songs, learn music in the fullness of its application in the real world. don't try and operate in a vacuum by reading about it. 'mediant' doesn't mean any more than '@ the third'. you can know all about what is working in a tune in your ear out of the experience of it, which is real learning as opposed to this layer of abstraction on a page. and there is no hurry, take a year to explore tunes, sing them with piano accomp or guitar accomp. if you are going to be cut out for it, the real experience with songs will result in, the things will dawn on you as a matter of course.

those theory terms are for theory class where a teacher shows you in a cut-and-dried analysis in a piece of music. there is no 'there', there in a classroom exercise unless you are playing some music, then you might get the point of that, 'passing tones, escape tones' and all of this. the book reading is not going to be sufficient, the 'grab a midi and peruse it' either.

Bandits! · Post by **Bandits!** » Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:56 am

Thanks everyone.

codec_spurt · Post by **codec_spurt** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:34 am

I don't know if I got your question wrong, but this is what I do.

Learn the modal scales - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(music):

4.1.1 Ionian (I)
4.1.2 Dorian (II)
4.1.3 Phrygian (III)
4.1.4 Lydian (IV)
4.1.5 Mixolydian (V)
4.1.6 Aeolian (VI)
4.1.7 Locrian (VII

One of them is the jazz scale, another the Egyptian Middle-Eastern scale.

You can then get into Harmonic minors and melodic minors where (and this should really screw your head up - the notes that you play on the way up are different to the ones that you play on the way down)

Check out this page it will tell you so much.

http://jguitar.com/scale

The minor blues pentatonic is the gold standard scale - play that and it is a great rock bed for flying all the other ones off. Learn your relative and major minors and you are good to go.

You will find that you go round in circles and you will find that you can break rules that no one ever said you could - yet they still work, But you will also experience the dark mystery of the lost chord - no matter how hard you try it is not there - nothing - and you have tried every single one sounds wrong. Thre guitar is very easy to learn, but it has mysteries that like some women, make you keep coming back for more and more, just to understand.

But then again, I'm a pretty average guitarist. Maybe one of our real guitarists on Kvr could explain these mysteries, especially the one of the lost chord.

tapper mike · Post by **tapper mike** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:54 pm

jancivil wrote:learn some songs, learn music in the fullness of its application in the real world. don't try and operate in a vacuum by reading about it. 'mediant' doesn't mean any more than '@ the third'. you can know all about what is working in a tune in your ear out of the experience of it, which is real learning as opposed to this layer of abstraction on a page. and there is no hurry, take a year to explore tunes, sing them with piano accomp or guitar accomp. if you are going to be cut out for it, the real experience with songs will result in, the things will dawn on you as a matter of course.

those theory terms are for theory class where a teacher shows you in a cut-and-dried analysis in a piece of music. there is no 'there', there in a classroom exercise unless you are playing some music, then you might get the point of that, 'passing tones, escape tones' and all of this. the book reading is not going to be sufficient, the 'grab a midi and peruse it' either.

Great advice

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:04 am

codec_spurt wrote: Ionian (I)
Dorian (II)
Phrygian (III)
Lydian (IV)
Mixolydian (V)
Aeolian (VI)
Locrian (VII)

there is a problem that tends to accrue out of this. a lot of people form a belief that Dorian relates to this identity 'Ionian' aka Major scale 'first', Ionian as primary consideration.

So the major scale has a hegemony by default. This gets in the way, I've seen it too many times.

Each of these modes is its own thing/own identity.

All white keys/C Major, D tonic = D Dorian. But the tonic for D Dorian IS D. D is I.

So: 'Ionian is the seventh mode of Dorian' is every bit as true as 'Dorian is the second mode of Ionian'.

codec_spurt · Post by **codec_spurt** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:25 pm

Thanks. Interesting.
I never claimed to be a master in scales.

I got half way (obviously), but they give the beginner a bit of spice when starting. That is why I always advise people serious about learning the guitar to find a serious teacher.

Thank you for the advice.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:11 pm

I don't know that it's a problem for you, but I have noticed that because of the way modes are framed, the misconception arises that everything is a subset of Major. IE: you get things like "D Dorian in C major". C major is but coincidental to D Dorian.

Arr0wHead · Post by **Arr0wHead** » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:58 am

jancivil wrote:I don't know that it's a problem for you, but I have noticed that because of the way modes are framed, the misconception arises that everything is a subset of Major. IE: you get things like "D Dorian in C major". C major is but coincidental to D Dorian.

Both correct. There's two applications of modes: parallel and relative. Relative is exactly that - D dorian vs C major. Parallel would be D dorian vs. D Major.

It's not coincidental at all. It's the relation to the "I" that makes both parallel and relative modes sound "modal".

D.Josef · Post by **D.Josef** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:03 am

jancivil wrote:I don't know that it's a problem for you, but I have noticed that because of the way modes are framed, the misconception arises that everything is a subset of Major. IE: you get things like "D Dorian in C major". C major is but coincidental to D Dorian.

Haha, yes. I've been learning piano for some time now, but I am still confused by people writing stuff like "the Myxolydian mode of F major"... ("Oh you mean C Myxolydian?")

I wonder, is there some sort of school of theory or rationale behind looking at modes this way?

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:44 am

D.Josef wrote:
jancivil wrote:I don't know that it's a problem for you, but I have noticed that because of the way modes are framed, the misconception arises that everything is a subset of Major. IE: you get things like "D Dorian in C major". C major is but coincidental to D Dorian.
Haha, yes. I've been learning piano for some time now, but I am still confused by people writing stuff like "the Myxolydian mode of F major"... ("Oh you mean C Myxolydian?")

I wonder, is there some sort of school of theory or rationale behind looking at modes this way?

IMO, there isn't. I think it's just a kind of "mnemonic" developed by some people (mainly jazz players) to remember what fits.
Otherwise, this a completelt absurd thing. I have been saying this over and over. Modes are not subsets. Major mode and Minor mode are in themselves also modes, the only ones that remained, and the minor mode is directly derived (and we can consider it inherits) the mode of D (Protus, erroneously called Dorian). Functional harmony is another thing that developed in the western music, and jazz harmony, AFAIK, is based on that. So, talking about "Dorian mode in C major" is like talking about "D minor in C major" - absurd. But people keep talking about this, and even calling modes scales, etc.

Tonic and dominant