Phrasing in electronic music and the curse of predictability

[sjm]

Did I have learned anything important after 8 pages of this thread??

I learnt that some people can't take a hint

[jancivil]

this thread is a nightmare.

someone brings up the idea of a little variety in the EDM and there is such conservatism afoot here, such reactionary impulses this shit happens.

we could talk thoughtfully but a couple of people require to define, for one what is 'not delightful' about rhythm as though their experience is the defining experience, hence to establish boundaries as to what is acceptable.

then another person seeks to establish boundaries as to what can even be done: formal innovation is a violation! you would not get to this having any experience as a composer. Form has evolved and evolved some more, composers innovate or music dies on the vine. No one writes sonata form and gets any traction today! Sonata form was new at one time. You'd have to be completely ignorant of practically all of the history to arrive at this shit.

this is just all an egregious abuse of language to pretend to know something. it evidences extreme conservatism, which is a reactionary mentality, which indicates fear. Fear of music at heart.

just a nightmare. there is no getting back on topic, ghettosynth! You would like to get back to controlling Sendy's idea of EDM, your comfort zone. Talk about an internal monologue! She isn't interested in your policing of what is acceptable.

then we have ghettosynth, who probably didn't even know of Varese until he went to ridicule my latest completed work: "there is no evidence people that enjoy that are smarter than people like me", or some shit. I don't operate from 'prejudice', I have noticed things in reality throughout my life. People find their level.

Varese ran into serious resistance; Varese withdrew from presenting anything for around a quarter of a century he was so frustrated. There were scandals at performances of new work. The serious composers of the era, Stravinsky, before that Debussy, who was a great friend to Varese, knew the value of the work. OTOH, the conservatives, the ones wanting things to stick in the mud (the ones lacking in imagination, with closed minds) were not pleased and they reacted. There is much history to observe here. Trouble at the premiere to Le Sacre in 1913... there was violent reaction to a lot of changing time signatures, for real! I don't think you're going to see people 'killing about 4/4'; this idea is too silly. People that understand time in music know that you can do any number of crazy things in 4/4. The Black Page #2 is mostly 4/4 in fact.

This illustrates the truth of popularity vs a cognoscenti. There is, in reality, a pyramidal form that accrues.
A broad base of support where people with little of information, knowledge, experience with the thing, and a small intense concentration at the top where you find an abundance of knowledge.

You can pretend that this isn't true, and you can fight against it with all you can muster. Evidently what you can muster is found to be a lot of desperate, dishonest, shit though. All you show us is the shit that comes out of a fearful, resentful, negative attitude. Excellence is nowhere in site, you can't stand it. So here comes some journalism, a lot of empty posturing language; you can trick yourselves but that's the extent of it.

What is with people that go and try to talk about something they don't have the first clue about? It's amazing to me. Take half a minute to reflect, try and have the beginnings of humility. The arrogance evidenced in here is ASTOUNDING.

[jancivil]

I'll take Simon's definition over yours. Which, if your reading skills had any chance of competing with your loud screechy internal rantalogue, should have been obvious that his definition was what I had in mind.

My reading skils?

I think that I was pretty clear. I was using the cited definition, and not my own. Had you read my posts, that should have been obvious in context. I'm not interested in your opinion on the definition unless you cite a music scholar, as I did. By scholar, of course, I mean someone with the appropriate credentials who engages in scholarly work at a professional level.

You're clearly reaching to make me look foolish, by your typical devious tactics.
I wrote: "this is the definition you want". So it isn't? Bullshit. But your entire ammunition consists of your assertion that I didn't read every word of every one of your posts! So, I can't read. You're upset aren't you. And such schoolyard behavior this is, which you at all points seek to disguise by your verbosity and pompous tone:

I think that we can reasonably accept that a Cambridge scholar's definition of the principles of pop is more sound than your own. Granted, that's an appeal to authority, but you offer only an appeal to your opinion.

This is a joke. I know that writer. I have no respect for that. It not only is not authoritative to me, it is not scholarship. Pop music scholarship! It's f**king journalism man, it's a tosser with an opinion, that has a degree. There is nothing there I respect, in fact I have contempt for the whole exercise.

This is the level you gravitate to, unsubstantial, superficial, a lot of vapid language: Pop Music Scholarship. Thank you for that. My criticism is not valid - only an opinion! - because you present an opinionated idiot with a degree? A Cambridge Scholar! Through that and not more, any opinion is 'more sound than _'. That is just the end, the nadir. I criticized what he wrote. You do not have anything to counter that with so you resort to this vacuous, pretentious spiel. Your discourse reveals the empty hand and the need to cloak it with language which is pure bullshit.

Really, I'm trying to stay on topic here, and I'd encourage you to do the same.

Your topic, you mean. I have no interest in you defining what to talk about on this forum.

Let's discuss electronic music and repetition in the context of a power of two structure to the measures.

Let's be pompous boring twits for pages about something inutterably tedious? You go do that, that's all yours. Write up your thesis, make a new thread: "Discuss"!

[Tricky-Loops]

Did I have learned anything important after 8 pages of this thread??

What did you expect to learn? Is that now a requirement for threads on KVR?

Actually, I learned several things in this thread. I found two interesting sources on pop-music history that I didn't know about, one specifically with respect to dance music.

Monsieur Varése?:roll:

Are you serious? I said pop-music. What's with the eye-roll?

I've learned that I could be a better musician by listening to Varése...

Have you done it yet? Or are you still fiddling about with loops?

Since I have looped Varése, he is playing the whole day long in my DAW...

Maybe it's because I've looped him in 4/4 time signature. Should I have been looping him in 3/4, 4/6, 4/7 or 5/6?

[Beazlebug]

Varese is great - especially that Bladerunner sound track he did. I also like Olivier Messiaen, (he originally wrote the Birdy Song)

[ghettosynth]

Have you done it yet? Or are you still fiddling about with loops?

Since I have looped Varése, he is playing the whole day long in my DAW...

Maybe it's because I've looped him in 4/4 time signature. Should I have been looping him in 3/4, 4/6, 4/7 or 5/6?

Shouldn't be a problem, just make sure that you only run him through zero-delay feedback filters.

[Nystul]

This thread reminded me about an article I read regarding J.S. Bach dance suites and whether they were actually meant for dance. The author is a cello player who, trying to get a better perspective on Bach and the baroque, meets with a baroque dance teacher and attempts to play the cello suites while she attempts to dance to them. I was able to google it here: http://www.cello.org/newsletter/article ... bridge.htm

Relevant excerpt: "What became clear is that the Bach Cello Suites really aren't meant to be danced to, though there are some movements that work better than others; the sarabandes, bourrées, and minuets usually work the best. A true Baroque dance piece has an obvious 'tune,' a clear sense of pulse (i.e. the music has a strong beat) and clear, regular phrasing, usually eight bars in length. Mansbridge said that "dance music in the Baroque era tends to be very predictable." Not many of the movements in the Bach Cello Suites meet these requirements. Bach used the dance forms as mere starting points and, through his boundless imagination, he stretched and molded them to suit his own fancy. "

[ghettosynth]

I know that writer...it's a tosser with an opinion, that has a degree

More than "a" degree, in fact. By your own standards then, you're a tosser without a degree and without any invited essays on the subject. So we can easily conclude that no matter how shrill you screech out your unsupported opinion, there's no reason to accept it over the tossers that have followed through with their studies and made a commitment to put their words in a form that matters.

amiright?

Actually, I'm surprised that you dismiss Simon so quickly, and even more surprised that you missed my mis-attribution. I thought that you studied tape music?

[ghettosynth]

This thread reminded me about an article I read regarding J.S. Bach dance suites and whether they were actually meant for dance. The author is a cello player who, trying to get a better perspective on Bach and the baroque, meets with a baroque dance teacher and attempts to play the cello suites while she attempts to dance to them. I was able to google it here: http://www.cello.org/newsletter/article ... bridge.htm

Relevant excerpt: "What became clear is that the Bach Cello Suites really aren't meant to be danced to, though there are some movements that work better than others; the sarabandes, bourrées, and minuets usually work the best. A true Baroque dance piece has an obvious 'tune,' a clear sense of pulse (i.e. the music has a strong beat) and clear, regular phrasing, usually eight bars in length. Mansbridge said that "dance music in the Baroque era tends to be very predictable." Not many of the movements in the Bach Cello Suites meet these requirements. Bach used the dance forms as mere starting points and, through his boundless imagination, he stretched and molded them to suit his own fancy. "

Thanks for posting that.

[Tricky-Loops]

This thread reminded me about an article I read regarding J.S. Bach dance suites and whether they were actually meant for dance. The author is a cello player who, trying to get a better perspective on Bach and the baroque, meets with a baroque dance teacher and attempts to play the cello suites while she attempts to dance to them. I was able to google it here: http://www.cello.org/newsletter/article ... bridge.htm

Relevant excerpt: "What became clear is that the Bach Cello Suites really aren't meant to be danced to, though there are some movements that work better than others; the sarabandes, bourrées, and minuets usually work the best. A true Baroque dance piece has an obvious 'tune,' a clear sense of pulse (i.e. the music has a strong beat) and clear, regular phrasing, usually eight bars in length. Mansbridge said that "dance music in the Baroque era tends to be very predictable." Not many of the movements in the Bach Cello Suites meet these requirements. Bach used the dance forms as mere starting points and, through his boundless imagination, he stretched and molded them to suit his own fancy. "

Of course, if you're sitting on a seat of a concert hall or opera, you shouldn't stand up and dance over the other listeners. Maybe that's what Bach wanted to prevent and so he modified his music to not to be dancable.

[fmr]

This thread reminded me about an article I read regarding J.S. Bach dance suites and whether they were actually meant for dance. The author is a cello player who, trying to get a better perspective on Bach and the baroque, meets with a baroque dance teacher and attempts to play the cello suites while she attempts to dance to them. I was able to google it here: http://www.cello.org/newsletter/article ... bridge.htm

Relevant excerpt: "What became clear is that the Bach Cello Suites really aren't meant to be danced to, though there are some movements that work better than others; the sarabandes, bourrées, and minuets usually work the best. A true Baroque dance piece has an obvious 'tune,' a clear sense of pulse (i.e. the music has a strong beat) and clear, regular phrasing, usually eight bars in length. Mansbridge said that "dance music in the Baroque era tends to be very predictable." Not many of the movements in the Bach Cello Suites meet these requirements. Bach used the dance forms as mere starting points and, through his boundless imagination, he stretched and molded them to suit his own fancy. "

It's amazing how some people waste their time and efforts.

[ghettosynth]

This thread reminded me about an article I read regarding J.S. Bach dance suites and whether they were actually meant for dance. The author is a cello player who, trying to get a better perspective on Bach and the baroque, meets with a baroque dance teacher and attempts to play the cello suites while she attempts to dance to them. I was able to google it here: http://www.cello.org/newsletter/article ... bridge.htm

Relevant excerpt: "What became clear is that the Bach Cello Suites really aren't meant to be danced to, though there are some movements that work better than others; the sarabandes, bourrées, and minuets usually work the best. A true Baroque dance piece has an obvious 'tune,' a clear sense of pulse (i.e. the music has a strong beat) and clear, regular phrasing, usually eight bars in length. Mansbridge said that "dance music in the Baroque era tends to be very predictable." Not many of the movements in the Bach Cello Suites meet these requirements. Bach used the dance forms as mere starting points and, through his boundless imagination, he stretched and molded them to suit his own fancy. "

Of course, if you're sitting on a seat of a concert hall or opera, you shouldn't stand up and dance over the other listeners. Maybe that's what Bach wanted to prevent and so he modified his music to not to be dancable.

I doubt that was the intention. However, that's not really the crux of the point. The article is interesting and talks about the debate of how Bach's work should be played, viz., for dancers or for not-dancers, and, that there is an intrinsic relationship between steadiness of beat and dancing.

[jopy]

it is worth remembering that the baroque dance suite had so many different types of rhythms, never would there be a whole suite that just stuck to 4/4 or 3/4 or 6/8 all the way throughout, and there is a marked difference in the way these pulses were set up for each dance. our horizons seem so limited.

especially compared to this:



not in 4/4, very complex pulse, very much something these women are able to dance to.

[t3toooo]

if you would play bach only with an accent on the first note it would sound horrible.

the later classical theory invented accents on notations for a lot of old music,not that the composer had always written them (the old music had not so much of them),articulation symbols got more used over the time.

a accent of course does change the rhythm even though it's still written in 4/4 for example.
if you would correctly notate a lot of classic music you would be surprised that 4/4 is nothing else than a try to make music understandable and give it a framework.
it's just a basic level.

always using the same accent at the same tempo is incredibly lame,at least for the listener.


a friend of mine denoted john bull as a innovator of progressive rock.




music needs variations,telling anyone 4/4 would be "stronger than" is a bit misleading.a sequencer is a "stupid thing" or just a tool for expressions.

[Sendy]

Did someone say something about "my thesis"?

I'm sorry, when did I write a thesis? I had no idea KVR was a scientific journal!

I'm not suprised that if you dissect my post line by line it probably amounts to very little in terms of concrete musicology or objective science or whatever. I'm not a musicologist. I just wanted to share that, coming from a background of dance music as I have done (I cut my teeth making drum and bass dubplates with my brother in the 90's) it's VERY easy to get gridlocked into a heirarcy of even phrasing, tending to powers of 2 and even numbers of repetitions or variations.

I thought it'd be nice to share since I've made a lot of neat discoveries by deciding to lessen the strictness of this trend in my music. I thought it might inspire someone or at least bring up some fun debate. I'm not going to answer and justify cut up bits of my original post and people's responses to them because it was JUST A POST. If I were writing a legally binding statement or something, maybe...

So anyway, I've been accused of snobbery and ridiculed, quite possibly had words put in my mouth, and now feel I've lost the one place where it was "safe" to hang out on the net and talk about this stuff. Did someone even imply I dissed drum-machine based music? I know not all of the comments were directed at me personally, but it's still pretty mind-boggling.

Tell me, was it my little joke about "not making DJ's have to think" that caused the hostility? I've heard so many jokes about drummers being thick and keyboardists being nerds (totally guilty) and bassists being dysfunctional from playing in crappy local bands that I don't see why the high and mighty DJ shouldn't be poked fun at once in a while.

And I've gone into a trance dancing to allsorts of music (with and mainly without the use of chemicals) many of which was organically arranged, had odd bars here and there that acted as units in-and-of themselves, some of it has even not had a regular predictable BEAT, let alone phrasing and arrangement. Even some of the fresher dance acts play with this level of form, like Basement Jaxx. It's never made me stop dancing when done correctly.