Best way to practice circle of fifths?

[jontah]

I've got a question, since I'm really struggling alot with piano.. I cannot get further it seems.

Anyway..

I've been wondering about the circle of fifths.

What's the really best way to learn it?

I am currently practicing it this way:

I grab a piece of paper and just write down the different blocks, like this:

C F G - AM DM EM

G C D - EM AM BM

D G A - BM EM F#M

E A B - C#M F#M G#M

B E F# - G#M D#M C#M

F# Db B - D#M Bbm G#M

Db Ab F# - Bbm Fm D#M

Ab Eb Db - Fm Cm Bbm

Eb Bb Ab - Cm Gm Fm

Bb F Eb - Gm Dm Cm

F Bb C - Dm Gm Am

Then, when I have it all down in my mind and I know this like floating water (without having to think too much about it)

I will start practicing it down on the piano. And since I have it in my mind already, I know where to put my hands on the keys.

Is this a good way of learning it?

Also, I've noticed, since I know all of the major scales, if I know it's relative minors, I know all the minor scales aswell.

By learning the circle of fifth, I suddenly do not only know the major scales but the minor scales aswell, since I know their relative minors!

How would you learn the circle of fifth? and do you recommend on learning something else instead? or is it really that powerful to learn the circle of fifths/fourths?

Then, when I have learned this, how do I learn all of the 7ths and 9ths to all of these chords that I've learned in the circle of fifth?

I just need to practice more on this. Whenever I got the circle of fifth out of the way, I can instantly feel more secure about my piano playing!

Then I have a question about creating melodies, how do you guys think? I mean how do you know what notes to play in the melody? there must be some kind of hint or atleast beginner advice. I could play notes from the chords, yes, for sure, but then what? what else? it sounds plain booring if you just play the notes straight out from the chords and add nothing else to it.

This guy here for example uses only 4 chords, Eminor7, C2, G2, D, and he still gets it to sound really beautiful and awsome. What techniques are used in this video? I mean, sure he explains alot, but there's the little things inbetween that really makes it sounds so floating.



Answers are highly appreciated! I'm struggling with this everyday and I'd really love to become better at playing the piano.

[JumpingJackFlash]

To start with, I would ask why you wish to memorise the circle of fifths. - That's quite an important starting point; it could be that there are better ways of achieving your (ultimate) goal. (Don't get me wrong though, it's certainly a useful thing to understand).

Note that the true circle of fifths is not just a cycle of chords, but of keys.

[jontah]

To start with, I would ask why you wish to memorise the circle of fifths. - That's quite an important starting point; it could be that there are better ways of achieving your (ultimate) goal. (Don't get me wrong though, it's certainly a useful thing to understand).

Note that the true circle of fifths is not just a cycle of chords, but of keys.

I want to learn the circle of fifths because:

I can then choose between chords that I know belong to the key (eventhough I know all of the scales in major and minor already! It's just easy and pleasant to memorize the chords so I know directly what to chose from (after all there are only 7 chords to chose from, and in the circle of fifths, theres only 6 to chose from, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not mentioning the dim chord, right?)

You get my point? so lets say I'm in the key of G, I know directly, AHA! in G I can play G C D EM AM BM, then I can just feel secure about that and start messing around with different progressions.

That's how I think about it. Since I already know the scales, I don't care about how many flats or sharps there are in there (since I've memorized the scales without thinking about the circle of fifths, I just know the scale in my brains muscle memory or whatever you wanna call it)

I just want to be able to jam around in no matter what key I am in.

My problem is that I'm doing a progression, lets say G EM AM D, then I start to play some top notes on the chords, but I still play the chords like whole chords (playing the actual whole chord - Gmajor for example as this: G B D). I don't know if it's that I'm playing the whole chord that makes it hard for me.. do you guys often play the whole chords? or do you split them up?

What I'm doing now is that I'm playing the whole chord in the right hand and in the LEFT hand I'm playing the root the fifth and the octave in an arpeggio like pattern. It sounds pretty sweet, but there's no melody in the right hand, just the chord with some extentions. For example when I'm messing around I'm playing the whole chord and just moves the fifth of the chord in the left hand up or down to create a melody. You get my problem? it still sounds kind of lame and static. I'm not sure how to progress from here. hehe.

Thanks.

[jontah]

I also want to add that when I'm starting out, I do not have ANY melody or so whatsoever in my head, I just sit down on the keyboard and play some chords and mess around with the notes.

I don't know if that's even a good way to create melodies. Maybe some of you guys could share some tricks and tips for me how to create melodies because I'm pretty much empty when I start to make my music. It's just things that I stumble on bascially, by coincidence.

I've read alot about melodies and people say "sing it", well, what the hell should I sing? haha, you get my point. I don't even know anythnig to start with, it just comes when I'm playing the piano sometimes. Although I haven't done any good melodies yet I have to admit lol.

[Bobbotov]

My problem is that I'm doing a progression, lets say G EM AM D, then I start to play some top notes on the chords, but I still play the chords like whole chords (playing the actual whole chord - Gmajor for example as this: G B D). I don't know if it's that I'm playing the whole chord that makes it hard for me.. do you guys often play the whole chords? or do you split them up?

What you want to know is about chord voicing. First learn all the chords and their inversions. Gmaj can be played, G,B,D or B,D,G or D,G,B. That is the root, first and second inversion. Chords with more than three notes like Maj7ths have a root and three inversions. Chord voicing is how the chord is broken up across the keyboard between left and right hands. If you go to Youtube there are numerous examples of chord voicing that run from very basic to voicing complex jazz chords which are the richest.

Once you understand inversions and chord voicing then try the circle of fifths (and also the circle of fourths). Both of those schemes are primarily used for modulating from one key to another. For example, you could have a song that starts in the key of C and modulates to the key A through the circle of fifths (i,e, C - G - D - A) The reason they are called circles is because you start in one key and modulate through all 12 keys to get back to the root key. You can also do them in minor keys. A nice one is a circle of fifths in minor9ths with some variations in inversions.

But look at the Youtubes. Lot's of good stuff out there that shows you step by step.

[JumpingJackFlash]

I want to learn the circle of fifths because:
I can then choose between chords that I know belong to the key (eventhough I know all of the scales in major and minor already! It's just easy and pleasant to memorize the chords so I know directly what to chose from (after all there are only 7 chords to chose from, and in the circle of fifths, theres only 6 to chose from, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not mentioning the dim chord, right?)
You get my point?

Not really. A better way to remember what chords are contained within each key would be to simply know that:
In any major key, chords I, IV and V are major, all the rest are minor except vii which is diminished.

And knowing the circle of fifths isn't really going to help you write good melodies.

[jancivil]

I just sit down on the keyboard and play some chords and mess around with the notes.

I don't know if that's even a good way to create melodies.

how's it working so far? that isn't through itself any path to melody.

I've read alot about melodies and people say "sing it", well, what the hell should I sing? haha, you get my point.

Yeah, that reading about it hasn't done the trick. As I have said too many times, learn some songs, get ahold of melodies in the world of music and find out in the experience of it and things may dawn on you.

you're in a kind of vacuum, what you are doing is relying on reading words about something that you have to find out by doing. You have no business writing yet.

The first time I went to write 'a song' was around a year after I started playing guitar. I had a book my mother got me for xmas, 'Great Songs of the 60's'. I was familiar with some of them, some not. I, with my terrible voice learned many of the songs, with the fake chords in front of me and everything. The songs I was familiar with I didn't need to read really, but I did bring that to the songs I did not know.

so, after say a year, the first time I went to write a song - this boy had written this hearts and flowers poem, it scanned well, it rhymed, I had an excuse to set something to music - I came up with a melody and chord to support it. It wasn't dry, it wasn't analytical, it was actually kind of easy to do.

Theory is not going to replace this. It might be more in your comfort zone to read, and stick to the computer, but you need to get this from songs, from real life so to speak.

You could spin your wheels for this year or whatever and you'll still be posting these questions here I think, or you could get music with music on the for-real side and real learning can happen.

[jontah]

My problem is that I'm doing a progression, lets say G EM AM D, then I start to play some top notes on the chords, but I still play the chords like whole chords (playing the actual whole chord - Gmajor for example as this: G B D). I don't know if it's that I'm playing the whole chord that makes it hard for me.. do you guys often play the whole chords? or do you split them up?

What you want to know is about chord voicing. First learn all the chords and their inversions. Gmaj can be played, G,B,D or B,D,G or D,G,B. That is the root, first and second inversion. Chords with more than three notes like Maj7ths have a root and three inversions. Chord voicing is how the chord is broken up across the keyboard between left and right hands. If you go to Youtube there are numerous examples of chord voicing that run from very basic to voicing complex jazz chords which are the richest.

Once you understand inversions and chord voicing then try the circle of fifths (and also the circle of fourths). Both of those schemes are primarily used for modulating from one key to another. For example, you could have a song that starts in the key of C and modulates to the key A through the circle of fifths (i,e, C - G - D - A) The reason they are called circles is because you start in one key and modulate through all 12 keys to get back to the root key. You can also do them in minor keys. A nice one is a circle of fifths in minor9ths with some variations in inversions.

But look at the Youtubes. Lot's of good stuff out there that shows you step by step.

Not really.. I know what chord voicingins are.

I think you mistunderstand me.

I am simply looking to know what chords I can play, I IV and V, without having to think, just KNOW that it is G C D in Gmajor for example. You get what I mean?

And circle of fifths also gives me that, right? it gives me the I IV and V chords, aswell as the VI I III. In that way I know the most important major chords and their relative minors.

It's just a matter of getting started. Once I know that, I was thinking I need to practice them down on the piano ofcourse, not just keeping them in my mind.

I'll practice those using the closest inversion. (yes I know about inversions too, just that it doesn't come flutently when I play a chord, I have to think "aha root position 2nd 3rd inversion, there we go".

Once I've done that I'll practice this everyday, aswell as arpeggios and play songs and still practicing the scales (eventhough I know them, they have to be written into my bones).

Not a good idea still? well, that's how I tend to think of it.. I don't know at all how I would even start to play the piano if it wasn't for the theory. Maybe because I started out with the theory before playing the piano at all..


And honestly, I'm a daily user of youtube. I've been searching a millllliiooooon times for pianolessons on youtube, I've bought around 5-10 different pianolesson packs from different pianolesson sites, I've been taking private lessons, been literally scanning through ALL pianolessons on youtube, or most of them, found my favorite teachers on youtube and subscribed to them, but still.. I'm kind of stuck here.

I don't think you guys know how much effort and time I've put into this.. so "look at youtube" answers are not going to cut it anymore, I'm sorry. with the time I've spent on this, I should have been decently good at this point, but I ain't :/

[jopy]

it sounds like the approach you're using isn't working, so it might be time to move on to the next phase and incorporate both your ears and your body into the process. i went down the same track you are on for a short period, then quickly progressed when i stepped away from trying to memorize in the abstract and started using the piano as a learning aide. you'll learn this much faster if you incorporate HEARING the chords on the piano into your practice. your hands will find where they need to go and help your brain along the way more readily if you step to the piano as well. it's also helpful to learn a chord progression to a simple song and then practice playing those chords in all 12 keys; that helps you learn a lot about harmony and sound.

[JumpingJackFlash]

I am simply looking to know what chords I can play, I IV and V, without having to think, just KNOW that it is G C D in Gmajor for example. You get what I mean?

I don't really understand you. Do you have trouble counting 4 and 5 along the alphabet?

Is your main aim to harmonise a melody? Or to improvise? Or to be able to modulate quickly between keys? Or to become a good piano player? Or to create melodies from scratch? Or to pass an exam?

Sometimes too much examination of theory can be restricting; it will come of its own accord in time. Most people learn best by doing. You tend to pick up the theory as you go along - almost subconsciously. If you study the theory first it can become sterile and isolated, and you might not be able to see the forest for the trees. Don't try to run before you can walk.

[satYatunes]

Learning circle of fifth is a good idea, it will help in long run and will make it easy for you to come up with chord progressions. Not sure, if it will help much on the melody dept. There is no formula for great melody. This is what I do and it makes it easy for me, I don't have to memorize keys for each chords. I am giving example for Major scale / chords below:

1. Learn how to derive scale from a key (you know that already). e.g. W W H W W W H for Major scale. W = Whole/Tone and H = Half/Semi tone.. similarly there is formula for all 3 minor scales
2. The keys are numbered from 1-7, e.g. C major scale C = 1, D = 2 and so on
3. Now remember 1-3-5 keys is a major chord e.g C-E-G is C Major

Now we can use the following formulas to derive other chords:
1. Lower 3 by one semi tone, you get C minor
2. Lower 3 and 5 by one semi tone, you get C diminished
3. Raise 5 by one semi tone, you get C augmented
4. Replace note 3 by 4, you get C suspended
5. Add 2 note, you get C2
6. Add 6 note, you get C6
7. Add 7 note, you get C major 7
8. Lower the 7 note by semi tone, you get C7 or dominant 7
9. With the Cm, add the flat 7 (7th note lowered by semi tone), you get C minor 7
10. Add 6 note to Cm, you get C minor 6

Similarly you can derive 9, 11 and so on so forth. There are inversions also, it basically replacing one of the key either up or down the keyboard. e.g. C-E-G is C major, the first inversion is when you play E-G-C, i.e. C is one octave up. Similarly, second inversion is G-C-E. There you go, lots of chords to play around. Practice this and when you move from one chord to another, your ear will tell you if it's a good progression or not. This is not all but it's a good point to start with. There are modes too.

Hope this helps.

[sjm]

Now we can use the following formulas to derive other chords:
4. Replace note 3 by 4, you get C suspended

That's a sus4; replace 3 by 2 and you get a sus2. Also note that one note's Sus2 is another note's Sus4:
Csus4 = C F G
Fsus2 = F G C

5. Add 2 note, you get C2

That would "normally" be called an "add9" chord (as opposed to a ninth chord that includes the seventh too). Note that the 9th is the same as the 2 (because once we reach 8 we're back at the root note, or 1).

I've put "normally" in quotes because different people have different opinions on how to name chords.

[satYatunes]

I've put "normally" in quotes because different people have different opinions on how to name chords.

I agree with you. I have memorized it that way but now that you have mentioned, I think it's easy to memorize if I call it Sus4 and Sus2 as the key # is also in the name.

[tapper mike]

Firstly let me say Jontah, I applaud your efforts. Even if I disagree with your methods. It's common (I believed it too for a time) to assume if you take the rhythmic aspect out of playing and simply play in cycles that you'll gain muscle memory faster and be able to recognize things more quickly.

Unfortunately that's not true. There are very few if any "songs" that have been written for the cycle of fifths. Must are simply studies in dexterity.

If you want to form chords easier without having to think about it learn songs. Songs usually only contain two keys at most. When you learn a song it's something you have for life. It's something you can enjoy playing for yourself and possibly others. It also gives you a better road map to learning other songs and/or writing songs then simply going thru route circle of fifths. You;ll also find that your current regiment isn't applicable to most songs due to the way inversions (smart voicings) and rhythms are applied. It's actually easier to shift between chords when you have a better grasp of rhythm and practical inversions. You'll also learn common extensions such as 7th's and 9ths. And finally it will expose you to substitutions (both common and uncommon) and exceptions. Many songs use chords that are not correctly or wholly defined in the key and can not be deemed as key modulations yet due to the way the song is played they sound right at home.

[jancivil]

I am simply looking to know what chords I can play, I IV and V, without having to think, just KNOW that it is G C D in Gmajor for example. You get what I mean?

And circle of fifths also gives me that, right?

It gives you information. At a certain point you have muscle memory, your hands and your head knows what these phenomena are. What I don't know is, are you getting to 'what reason is there for IV or V?'. What I don't see here is you applying this information to songs. Like, have you got some sheet music where a pianist's approach to a song is supplied for you?

so "look at youtube" answers are not going to cut it anymore, I'm sorry. with the time I've spent on this, I should have been decently good at this point, but I ain't :/

It's evident that you aren't going to teach yourself with the avenues available to you. I advise lessons.