Amp modeling successes - Cabinet VS Amp Poll

[Ivan_C]

Thanks for the interest

[zerocrossing]

I have Recabinet and seriously cant hear it doing anything good!
I actually thought it wasnt doing anything for the last year lol
But then I have ears of butter and 30 year old hifi speakers haha

That's the way I felt too. So many people love it I thought maybe it could help Amplitube out, but if anything I liked it a lot less than Amplitube's own internal cab modeling.

[zerocrossing]

Amazing time to be a musician. We can do so much these days, I almost hate to kvetch about this or that not being perfect when it's so close.

not that I disagree because I don't in whole but close to perfect what?
Perfectly sounding real? If you want real that is already an option. Besides it is real, it's a guitar signal amplified and tweaked for a desired tone by the player. That's as real as it gets, perfect.

OTOH if you're saying sims are getting close to sounding really great I have to disagree because I think they already do sound great. I really believe that amp sims really nailed it on this generation and they got over a hump if you will and now they are there. But then perfect doesn't exist in this case, in the above there are no degrees of real but in the latter there is no perfect sound. FWIW I'm glad there isn't, but I'll keep looking for it because I have so much fun along the way.

I really agree on how it is being a guitar player right now, I'm glad I didn't blow my ears out or burn myself out years ago like so many my age. I honestly have never had a better amp rig whether it be hardware or itb than I do now (I have both well covered as you know). All the years in bad environments with poor quality audio to flipping on a few switches for sonic utopia is more than a dream come true. Staying up an extra few hours when everyone is in bed and knowing no matter how late it is no one will complain is liberating.

I guess I did have something to say But honestly I cannot say which is better because which is better really is about "which is better at for a specific purpose?" I do weird things

I've been on a long road using various "amp sims" (both hardware and software) to get my tone having left true tube amps behind a long time ago due to a lot of what's already known about them (they love to be loud!). Also, like Hink, I do weird things as well. Tube amps aren't the best solution for doing ambient soundscape looping.

Here's what I've found: Amp sims are great and amp sims suck. What I mean is that great tone can be had with amp sims. My favorites over the years are the Vox Tonelabs, Johnson Amps, Amplitube and S-Gear. If I had to live my life using only one of those I would die a pretty happy guy.

... but why settle for happy when there's ecstatic? There are sounds that can't be had with software. My old modest Peavey Triumph 60 had a high gain distorted tone that I've never successfully gotten close to with any modeler. I've never been able to nail that Brian May tone with any modeler. Hell, even some of the awesome solid state amps I've had like my old Ampeg SC140 had sound that I've never found amp modelers. So, in that sense I totally disagree with Agreed. We're still really far away from nailing some types of specific kind of tones. Just not there... not even close.

However hardware modelers have arrived IMO, but even they basically use tube amps to get'er done. I'm talking about the Line6 Pod HD500/DT25 combo. Awesome. But problematic... because it's a tube amp. I think if you did the HD500/DT25 combo with the TwoTone Torpedo cab sim you'd nail it and be silent, but that's a very expensive proposition.

Axe-FX II is probably the best "amp modeler" you can buy, but frankly it still fails in getting the tones I was talking about above. Is it the amp section or the cab? Probably both. For the price they want for it it should be a lot better IMO.

So some of you probably already know where I'm going. As an alternative to modeling Kemper developed a process called "profiling" where they analyze and emulate a tube amp instead of trying to model one. For the money (it's a lot so start saving) it's the best overall solution. It does nail the sounds I was talking about. It can do that Brian May tone! Maybe if I had it up next to the real thing I'd be disappointed, but to my old ears it's good enough, and it's silent which is a must for my needs. Honestly, since I purchased it I've not used a single amp modeler and I really didn't even bother with Amplitube Slash. After a second with it I realized how far away it really was even though it sounded pretty good.

So to answer the OP's initial question: Both need some work to sound like real amps, though both can sound very good.

[kvaca]

As an alternative to modeling Kemper developed a process called "profiling" where they analyze and emulate a tube amp instead of trying to model one. For the money (it's a lot so start saving) it's the best overall solution. It does nail the sounds I was talking about. It can do that Brian May tone!

I cannot hear much difference between Kemper and modeling mainly becouse both suffer with similar issues /amps-hearable aliasing,cabinets-missing speaker breakup...etc,etc/

But I agree that theres still hearable difference between real hardware /both amps and cabinets/ and all sims including Kemper and Axe fx etc...but the difference is getting significantly smaller every year.

[Kazrog]

Recabinet's Speaker Dynamics feature accurately models all of the nonlinear aspects of speakers. The IRs accurately model all of the linear characteristics. Together they form an exact model of the sound of a speaker cabinet with different microphones.

In other words, IRs and physical modeling are not mutually exclusive. In fact, put together, the two approaches can create an exact model of any analog hardware I can think of.

Hey Shane; could you talk about what the dynamics knob in Recabinet is actually doing?

Sorry for the delayed response... extremely busy right now...

In short, we studied the nonlinearities of guitar speakers for over a year, and made algorithms to fit what we measured. The single knob interface belies the complexity underneath.

In the end, it was a mountain of work for a very subtle feature that some users may not understand or appreciate the importance of. If you're a mix engineer, it makes the difference between guitar tracks that sound like they're floating "on top" of the mix vs. guitar tracks that feel like they're "in" the mix. I also find that when tracking guitars while monitoring through Recabinet, the response to picking attack dramatically improves with speaker dynamics, which makes for a more inspiring tracking experience.

[Hink]

So to answer the OP's initial question: Both need some work to sound like real amps, though both can sound very good.

But all (including socalled real amps) can be used as a creative tool...I dont, nor do I think I need to think beyond that. I still like my sansamp and my pod2.0 (my xt as well)..if I thought putting my guitar in the toilet would lead to inspiration the first thing I would do is buy a Gibson, then...

[Lode_Runner]

Off topic tangent warning...

It can do that Brian May tone! Maybe if I had it up next to the real thing I'd be disappointed, but to my old ears it's good enough, and it's silent which is a must for my needs.

If you really want the Brian May Tone you're going to need a Red Special

24" scale length = Mellower and warmer than Les Paul (in terms of scale length it is to a Les Paul what a Les paul is to a Strat)
Non-solid body semi acoustic for feeding back.
Individual Pickup switching on/off, In phase/out of phase, and in Series = Lot's of pickup switching variations not available on most other guitars.

So much of May's tone came from the uniqueness of his guitar, rather than the Vox AC30. I can't see an amp sim won't make a Les Paul or a Strat sound like a Red Special.

The good news is Brian May is manufacturing them these days:
www.brianmayguitars.co.uk/

[Dean Aka Nekro]

Off topic tangent warning...

It can do that Brian May tone! Maybe if I had it up next to the real thing I'd be disappointed, but to my old ears it's good enough, and it's silent which is a must for my needs.

If you really want the Brian May Tone you're going to need a Red Special

24" scale length = Mellower and warmer than Les Paul (in terms of scale length it is to a Les Paul what a Les paul is to a Strat)
Non-solid body semi acoustic for feeding back.
Individual Pickup switching on/off, In phase/out of phase, and in Series = Lot's of pickup switching variations not available on most other guitars.

So much of May's tone came from the uniqueness of his guitar, rather than the Vox AC30. I can't see an amp sim won't make a Les Paul or a Strat sound like a Red Special.

The good news is Brian May is manufacturing them these days:
www.brianmayguitars.co.uk/

zerocrossing never claimed even close to 1:1 so bringing in a really specific guitar at a really bad price is missing the point. As is using the AC30 as the one component people assume to be the key component: Its that horrible transitor radio modded by Deacon with a rangemaster infront of it and even then May has spoken of using a Wah statically inbetween also for another stage of pre-filtering The good news is you can buy a pretty much one to one replica of the Deacy thing again at another really bad price point for what it is:

http://fryerguitars.wordpress.com/2011/ ... lica-2011/
http://www.musicradar.com/guitarist/unb ... -443991#!1

I reckon its all to do with the gravity defying mane that gave Brian May such a unique sound. Its all in the Hair

[jkleban]

Actually, I only find AMP SIMs to be less obvious for very heavy, very high gain guitar tracks... the more subtle settings leave alot to be desired to me. This is less obvious in the pre amp/ amp section.

Jim

[zerocrossing]

So to answer the OP's initial question: Both need some work to sound like real amps, though both can sound very good.

But all (including socalled real amps) can be used as a creative tool...I dont, nor do I think I need to think beyond that. I still like my sansamp and my pod2.0 (my xt as well)..if I thought putting my guitar in the toilet would lead to inspiration the first thing I would do is buy a Gibson, then...

I agree with that (not the part about flushing a Gibson, but tbh I've never been enamored with them. ) there are millions of great tools in front of us and it's a big lawless frontier we live in. As you can see from other posts Brian May ditched traditional amps like AC30s for transistor based amps. What ever works.

If I were to value a pure "real" tube sound I probably would have gone the HD500/DT route... though I'm not sure what I would have done for a cab. Maybe the Silent Sister would have done me? It sucked I couldn't locate one (or any iso cab) near me to check out. Maybe the Twotone solution would have been better for me. I know the Line6's idea of cab modeling sucks IMO. Even though I'm a hard core Kemper fan I still think I'd recommend the Line6 "Dream Rig" to someone who played live a lot and still felt that visceral need for a true tube amp and cab of some kind. I do think it probably had a bit of an edge on pure tone but I wasn't willing to go though the hassle of dealing with a mic'd cab or iso cab or the expense of a Torpedo.

So it's always about some compromise, right?

However, I will also say that my Kemper sounds, to me, significantly better than any amp modeler I've ever tried including the Axe FX Ultra and any software. Not just "different" but better. A lot better. As good as the amps it profiles? Of course not, but a lot closer than anything I've heard. I can't recommend it enough. If you're a studio bound guy like me and looking for a "final solution" to all your amp tone needs I say beg, barrow and steal what you need to pick up a Kemper. JRRshop's doing a 15% off this weekend, eh? So really for about the cost of a good guitar you could own one. I know I sound like a zealot, but I really am head over heals for this thing. I've never played more guitar since I picked one up.

[Lode_Runner]

Off topic tangent warning...

It can do that Brian May tone! Maybe if I had it up next to the real thing I'd be disappointed, but to my old ears it's good enough, and it's silent which is a must for my needs.

If you really want the Brian May Tone you're going to need a Red Special

24" scale length = Mellower and warmer than Les Paul (in terms of scale length it is to a Les Paul what a Les paul is to a Strat)
Non-solid body semi acoustic for feeding back.
Individual Pickup switching on/off, In phase/out of phase, and in Series = Lot's of pickup switching variations not available on most other guitars.

So much of May's tone came from the uniqueness of his guitar, rather than the Vox AC30. I can't see an amp sim won't make a Les Paul or a Strat sound like a Red Special.

The good news is Brian May is manufacturing them these days:
www.brianmayguitars.co.uk/

zerocrossing never claimed even close to 1:1 so bringing in a really specific guitar at a really bad price is missing the point. As is using the AC30 as the one component people assume to be the key component: Its that horrible transitor radio modded by Deacon with a rangemaster infront of it and even then May has spoken of using a Wah statically inbetween also for another stage of pre-filtering The good news is you can buy a pretty much one to one replica of the Deacy thing again at another really bad price point for what it is:

http://fryerguitars.wordpress.com/2011/ ... lica-2011/
http://www.musicradar.com/guitarist/unb ... -443991#!1

I reckon its all to do with the gravity defying mane that gave Brian May such a unique sound. Its all in the Hair

If a specific guitar was close to the same as a Les Paul for example, such that a Les Paul could be used instead and get you 0.95:1 of the way to the same tone, then I'd agree with you that a really specific guitar isn't that relevant to overall tone, that you could focus on using the right amp sim and be on your way to a similar tone. However, the thing about Brian May's guitar is that it is very different to other guitars - it is as different to the Stratocaster and Les Paul as these guitars are different to each other (considering that very few other guitars deviate far from one or the other of these two in their setup is saying something). Trying to get Brian May's sound without that guitar is like trying to get Hendrix's tone out of a Les Paul. The shorter scale length = much lower tension strings = much less high end bite and low end punch. A strat has 25 1/2 inch, Les Paul has 24 3/4 inch, and the Red Special has 24 inch - that's a huge difference in tone. Like-wise the wiring options on the guitar pickups make a huge difference - You couldn't get that nasal phase cancellation sound out of a standard setup strat or Les Paul without doing some mods. And acoustic chambers in the body also change tone considerably - Consider the difference in tone between a semi acoustic and a solid body - May's guitar isn't as semi-acoustic as say ES-355 for example, but it's still going to change the tone a fair bit.

As for bad price? I haven't been able to see what it retails for internationally, but I've seen it in my corner of the globe for less than $1000 which puts it in Epiphone and Squire territory, which is much cheaper than Paul Reed Smith, Fender and Gibson etc (although that may just mean that the guitar isn't as good as what these companies offer...)

Point taken on the other elements in May's tone being important... except for the hair of course

[zerocrossing]

Point taken on the other elements in May's tone being important... except for the hair of course

Oh yeah, when I'm talking about May's tone, I probably should have been a bit more clear. I know a lot of it has to do with the Daecy and the boosts he used and the guitar, parked wah, etc, but I think what I meant was more of a capturing of the general "vibe" that he often got more than any exact match of his overall sound. I'm not that kind of guy who "has to sound exactly like" anyone, but there are certain qualities that some of the great "tone kings" have attained that I find I look and listen for. I also put Xan McCurdy of Cake, Eddie Van Halen and Billy Gibbon from ZZ Top in my "tone kings" category though I don't pay any attention to what gear they use.

I thought it was funny that Amplitube released a Slash pack. Slash? Really? Why not just release it as "Generic Rock Guitar pack?" I've never once heard Slash play and thought, "Oh there's a really new or really great tone."

[Agreed]

I thought it was funny that Amplitube released a Slash pack. Slash? Really? Why not just release it as "Generic Rock Guitar pack?" I've never once heard Slash play and thought, "Oh there's a really new or really great tone."

I bought it because it solidifies their gear roundup in some important ways. First, they've got killer Marshall models now. I mean, bang-on. Give 'em a shot, they're great. Second, the effects they stuck in are all good ones. Not all necessary ones, but Slash has been a friend of endorsements as anyone can see and that has resulted in some nice products over the years. I use optical wahs physically because if you keep the treadle lubricated they'll work pretty much forever, while potentiometers need replacing way more often than I like to mess with - but I really prefer the sound of the classic Crybaby/Vox style wah, and so that's always been a bit of a quandary. Having a very good sounding option inside AT3:CS is extremely handy. Third, THAT NOISE GATE PEDAL It's fantastic, best digital noise gate I've found for a lot of stuff and it's just sorta tossed in the pack. Rad.

Good cabs with it, too, if you're acquainted with and fond of the AT3 cab sim methodology.

Money well spent imo, used the hell out of it since I got it. Even though I really am not a Slash "fan" (or a fan of anyone with a verb, adjective, or adverb for a name in social situations, really, that's taking the theatrics very far).

[Lode_Runner]

Oh yeah, when I'm talking about May's tone, I probably should have been a bit more clear. I know a lot of it has to do with the Daecy and the boosts he used and the guitar, parked wah, etc, but I think what I meant was more of a capturing of the general "vibe" that he often got more than any exact match of his overall sound. I'm not that kind of guy who "has to sound exactly like" anyone, but there are certain qualities that some of the great "tone kings" have attained that I find I look and listen for.

Looks like Dean Aka Nekro was right then - I did miss the point.

I thought it was funny that Amplitube released a Slash pack. Slash? Really? Why not just release it as "Generic Rock Guitar pack?" I've never once heard Slash play and thought, "Oh there's a really new or really great tone."

I bought it because it solidifies their gear roundup in some important ways. First, they've got killer Marshall models now. I mean, bang-on. Give 'em a shot, they're great.

I actually want Amplitube Slash so I can get that Jimmy Page Presence album sound. I know it's not the same Marshall model, but I found I was disappointed with the Marshall's in Amplitube 3 and Guitar Rig, whereas the ones in Slash sound great.

[zerocrossing]

Money well spent imo, used the hell out of it since I got it. Even though I really am not a Slash "fan" (or a fan of anyone with a verb, adjective, or adverb for a name in social situations, really, that's taking the theatrics very far).

Yeah, I didn't mean it was "bad" at all, and I've been critical of their past Marshal models so any new progress was surely welcome by Amplitube users, but I guess what I question is why you'd have a very non-descript washed up guitar player from the 80s. I guess I'm not a fan. Guns and Roses was always too derivative for me and not all that interesting. Couple that with an annoying lead singer and a very affected top hat wearing guitar player... left me cold. Yeah, I've heard Slash is super nice, and I have no beef with him... just seems like going to someone like Page or Eddie VanHalen would have made more sense from a marketing standpoint. Are there many people out there gaga to get that forgettable "Slash sound?" I doubt seeing that top hat really influenced a lot of people. Hell, I think they should release a Jimi Henderix Reprise set where they give it the same treatment they gave to the Slash models and the new custom shop stuff.