Use Spdif for jitter free midi without es-4?

[TS-12]

If it's possible to transmit midi over spdif, like expert sleepers es-4 demonstration here:

is it possible to somehow transmit midi over spdif without all the es-4?

[justin3am]

I believe it is possible but you need software (such as Silent Way ES-4 controller or the Sync-Gen software made by Innerclock) that will convert MIDI data to an audio signal. From there you should be able to send MIDI data over S/PDiF or any kind of audio channel.

From there I'm not sure if you need the hardware to translate the signal to something a MIDI input can understand. It might be possible to make a 1/4" TRS to MIDI din cable that will work. It may be the case that the ES-4 and Sync-Gen hardware have DC coupled outputs that produce a certain range of voltage that's appropriate for MIDI inputs. I'm not sure.

[UltraJv]

You have to be suffering from serious midi problems to do that. If thats the case, why not solve that instead of adding another level of complexity? Or use Midi over Lan?

[justin3am]

You have to be suffering from serious midi problems to do that. If thats the case, why not solve that instead of adding another level of complexity? Or use Midi over Lan?

Trying to synchronize outboard MIDI/Din Sync gear to a DAW can be very problematic. Almost every USB MIDI interface or audio interface with built in MIDI I/O I have tested introduces significant jitter causing timing data to be off by more than a few milliseconds causing the timing to fluctuate. MIDI over LAN doesn't help when you are trying to control something that isn't a computer. In some cases, these sample-accurate MIDI systems are the best solution to this problem.

That said, I don't have this problem. I mean, I do work with a lot of outboard gear that needs to be synced to my DAW but I'm using a MOTU MTP A/V as my master clock and things seem to sync up pretty tight to that. Occasionally I do have to manually edit some events to correct timing but that doesn't bother me so much. I understand that it can be a pain in the ass for other people though.

I believe that ZenPunkHippy uses Innerclock's Sync-Gen, maybe he can provide some feedback from the perspective of a person who has actually used this kind of thing.

[UltraJv]

You have to be suffering from serious midi problems to do that. If thats the case, why not solve that instead of adding another level of complexity? Or use Midi over Lan?

Trying to synchronize outboard MIDI/Din Sync gear to a DAW can be very problematic. Almost every USB MIDI interface or audio interface with built in MIDI I/O I have tested introduces significant jitter causing timing data to be off by more than a few milliseconds causing the timing to fluctuate. MIDI over LAN doesn't help when you are trying to control something that isn't a computer. In some cases, these sample-accurate MIDI systems are the best solution to this problem.

That said, I don't have this problem. I mean, I do work with a lot of outboard gear that needs to be synced to my DAW but I'm using a MOTU MTP A/V as my master clock and things seem to sync up pretty tight to that. Occasionally I do have to manually edit some events to correct timing but that doesn't bother me so much. I understand that it can be a pain in the ass for other people though.

I believe that ZenPunkHippy uses Innerclock's Sync-Gen, maybe he can provide some feedback from the perspective of a person who has actually used this kind of thing.

Perhaps its down to a PC/particular audio card/driver configuration thats being used?. Otherwise KVR would be jammed full of complaints about it.

[justin3am]

Perhaps its down to a PC/particular audio card/driver configuration thats being used?. Otherwise KVR would be jammed full of complaints about it.

It's just not something people notice outside of a specific use case. On forums that are more geared toward hardware, I see complaints about MIDI sync issues all the time. But like I said, It's not a problem for me, so it's probably not a problem for a large segment of people.

When I was working in ETS at AVID, I tested this issue against 24 different computers (Mac and PC, desktop and laptop) using 12 different MIDI interfaces and all of these configurations introduced a surprising amount of jitter particularly when a lot of real-time data was being transmitted. If you'd like I can go into more detail regarding my test results. I think I still have some of my Excel spread sheets.

Now, I don't work for the companies that make these sample-accurate MIDI solutions... it's also not a problem that effects the way I work with outboard MIDI gear. I'm just trying to illustrate that the problem is real and that there are solutions for the people who are affected by the problem. While these solutions are a bit expensive, they aren't snake oil.

[mkdr]

What kind of signals Din Sync's are? Couldn't you use an audio signal to drive it? Like a plugin that outputs din sync..

[justin3am]

What kind of signals Din Sync's are? Couldn't you use an audio signal to drive it? Like a plugin that outputs din sync..

I believe you can in some cases. I think it depends on what kind of voltage is coming out of an audio interface when a pulse goes high. Most audio interfaces can only put out around +/-1.5v so that may not be enough to trigger the clock input for a Din Sync device. Other audio interfaces have much hotter outputs. I was able to clock my analog sequencer from the analog outputs of my Motu 828MK2 but not from my old 828.

[alchniyal]

Try to use Native Instruments Reaktor to send midi data to spdif out

[mkdr]

What kind of signals Din Sync's are? Couldn't you use an audio signal to drive it? Like a plugin that outputs din sync..

I believe you can in some cases. I think it depends on what kind of voltage is coming out of an audio interface when a pulse goes high. Most audio interfaces can only put out around +/-1.5v so that may not be enough to trigger the clock input for a Din Sync device. Other audio interfaces have much hotter outputs. I was able to clock my analog sequencer from the analog outputs of my Motu 828MK2 but not from my old 828.

So basicly just some simple amplification to the audio out to get the it to 5.0 volts should do it(googled the specs for din sync)..

That should be the easiest and cheapest way..

[justin3am]

What kind of signals Din Sync's are? Couldn't you use an audio signal to drive it? Like a plugin that outputs din sync..

I believe you can in some cases. I think it depends on what kind of voltage is coming out of an audio interface when a pulse goes high. Most audio interfaces can only put out around +/-1.5v so that may not be enough to trigger the clock input for a Din Sync device. Other audio interfaces have much hotter outputs. I was able to clock my analog sequencer from the analog outputs of my Motu 828MK2 but not from my old 828.

So basicly just some simple amplification to the audio out to get the it to 5.0 volts should do it(googled the specs for din sync)..

That should be the easiest and cheapest way..

That would definitely work for someone who just wants to transmit DIN Sync but I believe the OP wants to transmit real-time MIDI messages as audio signals. This is possible but it's a bit more complicated than sending sync pulses.

[TS-12]

Yes, i dont wan to send midi sync. I want to send regular midi data, not audio, over spdif

[jupiter8]

The problem (that the ES4 solves) is that the SP/DIF format contains more than just the raw audio data. Certain bits have to be set in certain patterns for two devices to talk to each other.

You could in theory do it with analog audio however the antialiasing filters will wreak havoc with the data. For slower signals like Din-sync it isn't much of a problem but for audio i'm pretty certain it is.

It should be possible to send midi data via sp/dif between two computers that has special software to interpret it as midi data.

[lfm]

The problem (that the ES4 solves) is that the SP/DIF format contains more than just the raw audio data. Certain bits have to be set in certain patterns for two devices to talk to each other.

You could in theory do it with analog audio however the antialiasing filters will wreak havoc with the data. For slower signals like Din-sync it isn't much of a problem but for audio i'm pretty certain it is.

It should be possible to send midi data via sp/dif between two computers that has special software to interpret it as midi data.

I think protocol allows that.

My RME has a setting beside AES/EBU and other for raw/non-audio data.

With that set an audio device would ignore it I assume.

[jupiter8]

The problem (that the ES4 solves) is that the SP/DIF format contains more than just the raw audio data. Certain bits have to be set in certain patterns for two devices to talk to each other.

You could in theory do it with analog audio however the antialiasing filters will wreak havoc with the data. For slower signals like Din-sync it isn't much of a problem but for audio i'm pretty certain it is.

It should be possible to send midi data via sp/dif between two computers that has special software to interpret it as midi data.

I think protocol allows that.

It doesn't.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AES3