How come "Hardware" VA's 16 years ago sounded so good like the AN1x and now....

[Uncle E]

they had a huge period of wait to get the driver stable

Yeah, things were pretty bad back then. The drivers are very good now.

[Vectorman]

Back in 2008, all the "hardware just sounds better" talk I was seeing on message boards piqued my curiosity enough to get a Virus TI and a couple of Waldorfs. I liked them, but I can't say that I was instantly rendered barefoot. After how strongly many insisted the hardware VA's sounded better, I was expecting a more dramatic difference than what I felt I was hearing. The TI had much better built-in effects than softsynths typically do, of course, but to me, that was its biggest advantage. If anything, I remember listening to Howard Scarr's Virus patches and thinking that the patches he'd done for Zebra by then sounded better overall to me, as if Zebra's greater programming depth had allowed him to dial things in with more nuance and precision.

One thing to be said for those old VA's is that, because the number-crunching power just wasn't there to do really demanding analog emulation, they probably had to focus less on "authentic" in favor of just doing whatever possible to make things sound "good." A lot of the character in the older synths probably lies at least partly in the workarounds programmers had to find to goose the sound and try to make it punch despite the limitations they faced.

[Uncle E]

I think people suffer from retroactive hearing. The majority of those VA's sounded like absolute shit.

Then there's the Nord 1, which fell short as a vintage synth emulation yet still managed to sound really cool!

[SJ_Digriz]

I think people suffer from retroactive hearing. The majority of those VA's sounded like absolute shit.

Then there's the Nord 1, which fell short as a vintage synth emulation yet still managed to sound really cool!

The nord sounds good when amped/cabbed properly, but I've heard it go DI to a desk and it was llike someone drilling holes in your ears.

[Uncle E]

The nord sounds good when amped/cabbed properly, but I've heard it go DI to a desk and it was llike someone drilling holes in your ears.

I know! Isn't it great?!?

[SJ_Digriz]

by the way, I'm just saying that saying that the comparison is not valid. Although I did say they sounded like shit, I wasn't referring to the nord nor the ANX1. Although I don't think they could compare to analog synths or something like a Cs-80, they had a unique character that was cool for some applications.

I think VSTi, get a bumb rap because they are not being compared in the same sound domain.

[zerocrossing]

They were entirely digital and ran on very, very primitive processors. You probably wouldn't even notice the amount of CPU a Virus, a AN1x, a JP-80x0 etc would take on a modern CPU.

The problem is that the analog emulation mania has gone nuts. I really had high hopes that it would end one day but it get's worse and worse instead.
The Nord Lead is still one of the best soundding VAs imo for example.

Sadly everything now needs 0df stuff and so on. That's cool and maybe even necessary if the synth has to sound as close to analog synths as possible but it's NOT (!!!!!!) necessary for a GOOD sound!

I already gave up ranting about this a long time ago though
The majority of people still want emulations and no new stuff, so I guess it will stay like that for a while.

Stuff like Zebra, Synthmaster and Diversion are the way to go imo.
The best example is Sean from ValhallaDSP. He knows a lot of stuff about the great stuff from the past but he only uses this knowledge to learn from it and to come up with unique concepts instead of completely emulating something.

Cheers
Dennis

I'm late to this party and not going to read the whole thread, but I gotta agree. I like some of the analog-modelled "stuff", but for some, it just doesn't make a difference. And some of the "authentic" sounds people (mostly outside of KVR) are falling over are either unabashedly digital (FM8, anyone?) or emulations of such. Depending on the project, digital often sounds better.

I appreciate the work a lot of devs are doing (can wait for that CS-80 emulation that's rumored to be coming by a certain well-known dev!); but if everyone's development resources are pulled in that direction there's less focus on doing something original, like Razor

(and I'm not too happy with Propellerheads for developing yet another format for developers to have to turn their attention to, but that's another thread...)

Yeah, I already started that thread.

I don't entirely agree with the rest of your points though, because there are a lot of cases where a digital hardware synth trounces it's VSTi emulation. One I can speak confidently about is Discovery Pro vs a Nord Lead 2x. Sure, there are a lot of differences and by means are they the same, but the fact that Discovery Pro imports Nord Lead 2 sysex says enough. Now, I own Discovery Pro, and it's capable of some great sounds... but there are times where it just falls down flat, like when using a resonance sweet. Now, if you just want a Nordish sound every now and then, by all means get Discovery Pro and program around the faults and play to it's strengths.

But if you want that warm sweet Nord Lead sound that sits so perfectly in a mix, the software won't do. And it's not "oh it just sounds different but it's just as good." It does not sound as good.

Same holds true for FM8. It doesn't sound nearly as solid and warm as my cheap-o DX200. Now, it does a lot of cool tricks the DX200 can't touch, but in the end when I want a cool FM bass sound it's the DX200 I go to.

Is it always the case? Not sure. I ditched my Wavestation and Virus C as soon as I discovered KLC and Zebra2. I keep checking Virus demos to see if I hear anything I'm not getting and frankly I don't hear it. Doesn't mean it's not there though. If you're a trance guy there's probably no substitute. Not all software sounds good to me though. I thought Saurus was a giant disappointment. Glaringly harsh and crappy sounding compared to many other software subtractives.

The inverse is all the digital stuff like the SH-201s and MS2000s of the world that are just cheap sounding instruments. Not that good music can't be made on cheap instruments, but that's another story. In the end I judge each instruemnt, soft or hardware, on it's own merits and buy accordingly.

[zerocrossing]

I think people suffer from retroactive hearing. The majority of those VA's sounded like absolute shit.

Then there's the Nord 1, which fell short as a vintage synth emulation yet still managed to sound really cool!

The nord sounds good when amped/cabbed properly, but I've heard it go DI to a desk and it was llike someone drilling holes in your ears.

I've got a Nord 2x going directly into my middle of the road audio interface and it sounds fantastic.

[SJ_Digriz]

!

I think people suffer from retroactive hearing. The majority of those VA's sounded like absolute shit.

Then there's the Nord 1, which fell short as a vintage synth emulation yet still managed to sound really cool!

The nord sounds good when amped/cabbed properly, but I've heard it go DI to a desk and it was llike someone drilling holes in your ears.

I've got a Nord 2x going directly into my middle of the road audio interface and it sounds fantastic.

Of course "fantastic" is completely subjective. If that's the sound you like great

I'm simply saying it doesn't sound like one of the good analogs. And, you can't compare that sound and say some VSTi is more/less good sounding. When one is playing through an amp, even if it is internal, and one isn't.

And yes, Uncle E .. that drill holes in ears may be just what you are after.

[zerocrossing]

!

I think people suffer from retroactive hearing. The majority of those VA's sounded like absolute shit.

Then there's the Nord 1, which fell short as a vintage synth emulation yet still managed to sound really cool!

The nord sounds good when amped/cabbed properly, but I've heard it go DI to a desk and it was llike someone drilling holes in your ears.

I've got a Nord 2x going directly into my middle of the road audio interface and it sounds fantastic.

Of course "fantastic" is completely subjective. If that's the sound you like great

I'm simply saying it doesn't sound like one of the good analogs. And, you can't compare that sound and say some VSTi is more/less good sounding. When one is playing through an amp, even if it is internal, and one isn't.

And yes, Uncle E .. that drill holes in ears may be just what you are after.

Other than that it's "Subtractive" in nature, I don't remember seeing any marketing that said the Nord Leads were supposed to sound like "good old analogs." I keep a couple of analogs around because I agree with you. It doesn't sound like one. It does have it's own sound, and I like it.

But the "drilling holes in ears" comment... that's not quite "subjective." If anything, the Nord sounds a bit tame and I doubt I could get it to make a sound that's very harsh or shrill. In fact, I run it though distortion at times just to get it to scream a bit. Sounds to me like you may have been over-driving a DI or overusing the ring modulator.

[Ingonator]

I thought Saurus was a giant disappointment. Glaringly harsh and crappy sounding compared to many other software subtractives.

I don't know which presets of Saurus you checked but IMO it could sound very warm and far from crappy. With just the "Tone" knob in the oscillator section you could already adjust the basic character of the sound. Turning leftz leads to a darker/smoother sound and turning right to a brighter sound.
There are some very nice sounds (if i dare to say as some of my own sounds are included...) in the official "Analog" soundset. The one from Himalaya (called "Old Volt") is very nice too. More soundsets are in work now.

You could also check my demos here:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... c&start=60

A small "tutorial" by Markus:
http://www.tone2.org/forum/index.php?topic=949.0

As already mentioned in cases where i miss alittle low end in the sound of Saurus i add an external EQ. There are two comparisons of that at the link above. Saurus is currently at v1.0 but at a later update maybe some kind of additional "Bass boost" will be included (i had some talks with Bastiaan about this). In some cases this already works with the included Psychoacoustic modeling (= "Boost" button) but not in all cases.


About the Wavestation:

I got the Wavestation EX (since around 2004) and also the plugin. While in many cases they sound the same the is a difference in sound that use a bigger low end in the sound. At those the plugin sounds a bit "thin" IMO.
Not to forget that with a real Wavestation it's more fun to use the vector stick.
There are not many keyboard controllers with a proper vector stick and if yes it's mostly "tiny" and not easy to handle. It's also fun to use the vector stick of the hardware with the plugin version.
In general the Wavestation is still quite unique and could be hardly replaced wioth any other synth. Even if you could get another synth with vector synthesis and wavesequencing it will still sound different due to different waveforms/samples and FXs (the FXs in the Wavestation are awesome IMO).


Comparison of Waldorf Largo and the Waldorf Blofeld:

I got and love both but while the synth engine is quite similar i still prefer the sound of the Blofeld. This is also due to missing features in Largo like e.g. sample import, the PPG filter model and user wavetables import (with a 3rd party free editor).
All that power of the Blofeld is available in a "tiny" desktop module with an even more tiny DSP chip. It'S amazing what sounds this "little" machine could produce and the amount of features are still superior to many or most vst plugins. Not to mention that the Blofeld desktop version is only sligltly more expensive or even cheaper than some of the more expensive plugins (e.g. Omnisphere).
As i already told several times one of my favorite features of the Blofeld (and also in Largo) is the filter drive (e.g. the "Tube" model). This makes the sound much better than without the Drive IMO. In my commercial Blofeld bank i have used this features (and also the PPG filter model) for most of the presets.


Ingo

[Aroused by JarJar]

... that warm sweet Nord Lead sound...

Some say love is a many splendor'd thing- others say love is blind.

One thing for sure is that you and I have very different conceptions of "warm sweet".

[Ingonator]

... that warm sweet Nord Lead sound...

Some say love is a many splendor'd thing- others say love is blind.

One thing for sure is that you and I have very different conceptions of "warm sweet".

I agree. Back in 2004 i also tried to follow the "Nord Lead hype" and got a Nord Lead 2X. It was fun for some weeks but then i realized that it did not sound warm or even "analog" in any way and i sold it after 2 months i guess. During the same time i had some real analog synths like e.g. Jupiter 8, MKS-80 and Matrix 1000 so i did know how analog should sound like.
Anyway at the end of the day it's all a matter of taste and many people seem to like the Nord sound, or is it just about the color of the synth?

BTW i got the white Blofeld desktop which i much prefer over the new black models...
At the moment Stefan Stenzel and Wolfram Franke are still working on the Pulse 2 (looks like especially the software(firmware part was more difficult than expected...). I hope they will finish it soon.


Ingo

[whyterabbyt]

I don't entirely agree with the rest of your points though, because there are a lot of cases where a digital hardware synth trounces it's VSTi emulation. One I can speak confidently about is Discovery Pro vs a Nord Lead 2x. Sure, there are a lot of differences and by means are they the same, but the fact that Discovery Pro imports Nord Lead 2 sysex says enough.

actually i doesnt say anything. seriously; the ability to parse some parameter settings has zero correlation with what is done with those parameter settings.

[JoeCat]

I'm late to this party and not going to read the whole thread, but I gotta agree. I like some of the analog-modelled "stuff", but for some, it just doesn't make a difference. And some of the "authentic" sounds people (mostly outside of KVR) are falling over are either unabashedly digital (FM8, anyone?) or emulations of such. Depending on the project, digital often sounds better...

Yeah, I already started that thread.

I don't entirely agree with the rest of your points though, because there are a lot of cases where a digital hardware synth trounces it's VSTi emulation. One I can speak confidently about is Discovery Pro vs a Nord Lead 2x. Sure, there are a lot of differences and by means are they the same, but the fact that Discovery Pro imports Nord Lead 2 sysex says enough. Now, I own Discovery Pro, and it's capable of some great sounds... but there are times where it just falls down flat, like when using a resonance sweet. Now, if you just want a Nordish sound every now and then, by all means get Discovery Pro and program around the faults and play to it's strengths...

I'm doing an awful job of communicating lately

Didn't mean to imply that digital hardware was inherently worse (or better) than vst counterparts, but simply that not everything put to code (PC or dedicated DSP) has to be an accurate analog model to sound good, even when it's structure is subtractive. Good meaning "useful" to someone's ears, which is not always the same as "pleasant".

I'm waiting for a plug-in that has to be instantiated for ten minutes before it's in tune, then (randomly), the knobs come off as you're using it. I think u-he simulates broken caps (though I think that's awesome!)

Ingo - I love my Blofeld desktop also