How come "Hardware" VA's 16 years ago sounded so good like the AN1x and now....

VST, AU, AAX, CLAP, etc. Plugin Virtual Instruments Discussion
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osiris wrote:That's very interesting Aiyn. More comparisons please. Visual doesn't lie, as opposed to what people hear, or think they hear (or want to hear)
Out of curiosity, since people say AD conversion affects the sound, what did you use to generate the above pics? (I.E., DAW, etc....)
Do they look different in a different DAW? Do they look different coming through different soundcards??
It's some interesting questions.
Also, could you do some compares between VST's and hardware?
There was a thread last year on another site wherein I learned how to measure aliasing in VST processors and I went crazy with it all. That exercise allowed me to understand the weaknesses and strengths of the processors I can afford and use, free and paid alike. I consider processors to be very different from FX and instruments, however, so I judge them accordingly. I think most musicians feel this way to a certain degree. A processor shouldn't mangle incoming waveforms so it's important to know how accurate they are.

FX and synths are different, though, and I judge them on their sound and how they fit into a piece of music. I don't care what the waveforms look like. If, for want of a better example, I put Saurus into a track instead of Diva using the same parameters in each to create the same patch, in most cases the listening audience isn't going to notice a difference. Having said that, I agree that there may be times when a meticulously designed, CPU hungry, monster of circuit modeling VSTi could be useful for a part written to sit up front in the mix. An epic, in your face filter sweep, perhaps?

It gets to a point though, if we are still in the realm of accurate emulations, where a VSTi may actually sound (as someone mentioned earlier) "hyper-real"; better than the original. Then, it's no longer an emulation, its an idealization of the original. A good example are emulations of analog synths that allow one to "turn off" oscillator drift. A good idea, a great idea, that isn't an an emulation of the original.

Perhaps it's time that devs make it clear right up front as to whether or not a product is circuit modeled to indicate what could be termed "resource compatibility", similar to how "TDM" and "RTAS" labels are used to indicate what hardware resources they will need and use. I think that a company specializing in good sounding, resource conserving, plug-ins would thrive. Maybe there already is one and I'm not aware of it.

I'm just sayin'.

Sorry for the late Sunday morning, caffeine fueled, post. Time for a motorcycle ride.
Last edited by optofonik on Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Let us wander through a great modern city with our ears more alert than our eyes..." Luigi Russolo, 1913

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osiris wrote:Thank you Aiyn. I really value your opinion. Your demos were great and what struck me was how bright it sounded. Even the very harsh digital stuff sounded raw in a good way. Like Massive with a great preset. I think you and Rob Lee may be the busiest, most knowledgeable sound designers around. Makes me want it all that much more.
Thank you, check out the waveform I just posted. Yes, Me and Rob are certainly busy if nothing else!

http://soundcloud.com/d16group/aiyn-zahev-lush-101

On the audio demo of mine that is on their site, there is a percussion sound that is quite prominent just before the break-down. (It is a poor demo to be honest) that was made in Lush 101, I found it impressive that it could make something so percussive sounding, but others may be used that sort of thing.
Aiynzahev-sounds
Sound Designer - Soundsets for Pigments, Repro, Diva, Virus TI, Nord Lead 4, Serum, DUNE2, Spire, and others

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It's great. Massive does this quite easily. Massive is pluck heaven.

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Aiynzahev wrote:
Here is something though I did with some soft-synths:

Image

A. Saurus
B. Saurus with "boost" on
C. Diva (Moog)
D. Diva (Dual VCO saw)
E. ElectraX on Linear
F. ElectraX on Analog
G. Sylenth
H. Strobe (8 time over-sampling)
This is very interesting, thanks! I've read a bit of posts on your website and found them also very informative.
je n'ai pas besoin de copier.
My Website
My music on Last.fm

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I feel compelled to add that I do recognize the differences between varying desires of developers, patch programmers, and end-users. In the simplest of terms; devs want to push envelopes (pun not intended but enjoyed after the fact), patch programmers want to create evocative sounds, and end-users want great sounding plug-ins that conserve resources and help them avoid constant hardware upgrades.


I think the phrase, "Perfection is the enemy of progress.", applies to each group in different ways.

Okay, now I'm going for a ride in the mountains. Supposed to reach 106º in the valley in a few hours. Yikes.
"Let us wander through a great modern city with our ears more alert than our eyes..." Luigi Russolo, 1913

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optofonik wrote:Having said that, I agree that there may be times when a meticulously designed, CPU hungry, monster of circuit modeling VSTi could be useful for a part written to sit up front in the mix. An epic, in your face filter sweep, perhaps?
It really depends on the patch... You can run Diva in Draft mode and the cpu use is much less. For many presets, Draft mode sounds great. But then there are times when you really gain something by using the highest quality. Certain features require lots of cpu. Add high resonance, cross modulation and filter fm... and modulate those parameters and you will hear a huge difference in the result. Other presets you can hardly tell.

The important point to me is that the user has some control over cpu vs sound quality so they can use the cpu where it matters to them.

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grillo wrote:
Aiynzahev wrote:
Here is something though I did with some soft-synths:

Image

A. Saurus
B. Saurus with "boost" on
C. Diva (Moog)
D. Diva (Dual VCO saw)
E. ElectraX on Linear
F. ElectraX on Analog
G. Sylenth
H. Strobe (8 time over-sampling)
This is very interesting, thanks! I've read a bit of posts on your website and found them also very informative.
Thank you. I am really interested in reviewing the Arts Acoustic Compressors soon. With audio examples. One day I'd also like to write down various things I've learned about mixing trance.
Aiynzahev-sounds
Sound Designer - Soundsets for Pigments, Repro, Diva, Virus TI, Nord Lead 4, Serum, DUNE2, Spire, and others

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optofonik wrote:
It gets to a point though, if we are still in the realm of accurate emulations, where a VSTi may actually sound (as someone mentioned earlier) "hyper-real"; better than the original. Then, it's no longer an emulation, its an idealization of the original. A good example are emulations of analog synths that allow one to "turn off" oscillator drift. A good idea, a great idea, that isn't an an emulation of the original.
My sentiments exactly. I've played some piss poor fender rhodes before. They constantly had to be serviced. With little exception the first ep emulations were atleast consistent in performance although lacking in character that having multiple osc's rather then shelving would (and eventually did) cure. Most of the higher end hardware (Kurzweil for example) does an amazing job of enhancing the original sound and still making it practical for "authentic" recreation of covers. However (and I don't want to start a plug in war here) Many (not all) both free and pay sound neither super nor faithful. Then again back in the day I could line up 5 or ten actual rhodes and they'd all sound different. So maybe someone isn't sampling the right rhodes to begin with.
Dell Vostro i9 64GB Ram Windows 11 Pro, Cubase, Bitwig, Mixcraft Guitar Pod Go, Linntrument Nektar P1, Novation Launchpad

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Arrested Developer wrote:I think, the reason is rather that Roland used samples that not only sounded really good, but - in the case of real instruments - also were played really good.
The case of the JV1080 vs. Omnisphere is peculiar in that it's the same programmer using similar synth engines. I wonder if he was referring to the stock Omnisphere library or the Bob Moog Tribute Library? The reason I ask is that maybe Eric might have concentrated more on the Moog library than on the thousands of stock presets.

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Nothing particularly outstanding about the An1x sticks in my mind. It was good for the time but there is no way I'd rather go back to that era than now soft synth wise.

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The thing about software is that apart from the fact that's it's great sounding it's practical to...who can be arsed doing loads of Sysex commands with old hardware synths....saying that though some of the old synths particularly from the 90's and early 2000's still sound amazing,I'm thinking korg prophecy,nord lead,novation basstation and the jp8000

The basstation still sounds 100% analog to my ears,dunno about you
live 11 / Arturia collection / many Softube plug ins / thats it

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damoog wrote: The basstation still sounds 100% analog to my ears,dunno about you
But why should it not? It is an analog synth (with DCOs, sure, but still...).

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Haraldator wrote:But why should it not? It is an analog synth (with DCOs, sure, but still...).
Perhaps he's referring to the VSTi version?

btw, I personally think the Bass Station hardware can sound excellent when my fatter analogs are just too much. For example, it works really nicely with the Virus TI, with which the ATC is just horrible.

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I see your point but I also see time and time again that users are voicing concerns about various plugins not supporting 64 bit.

I downloaded Independence Free the other day. After waiting and waiting to get it the only sound that struck my ear as usable was the acoustic piano. None of the rest really satiated my appetite for sound. Had I been a younger happier self and not an old gorilla in the room I would have been greatly pleased with the response. But instead my thoughts were....finally a decent piano that sits in the mix well. Something "Stienway ish" that has the right character and warmth. Not to dark but still has meat not to bright but still has air.

I'm mostly disappointed with plugins. I have to go thru hundreds if not thousands of them. Simply to find something usable that's going to settle in somewhere. Plugins seem to me to be more about fine tuning where as workstation environments are all about performance. I'd rather have one kronos or one pc3k (not that either are in my budget) then everything on the software market combined.

A classic example:
Sometimes I think that developers get too far ahead of themselves and are having so much fun "being creative" in sound design they don't think about usability.
I studied old old school on SSL's mixing down to Struder's. I've been using daw's since windows 3.1 Cakewalk, Cubase, Samplitute, Acid. I couldn't figure out Ableton Live to save my life. The UI especially the FX were quite insane, It took me years to get a grip in Live. I'd go in work it for a few days in a row maybe a week. Watch all the videos read and read and read then get sick of it and hang it on a shelf. Because everything I wanted to do (as opposed to everything it's capable of) I could do with ease in my other daw's.

Maybe I am the grumpy old gorilla in the room listening with "old ears" (culturally) and that stops me from "seeing the big picture of the bright shiny future"
Dell Vostro i9 64GB Ram Windows 11 Pro, Cubase, Bitwig, Mixcraft Guitar Pod Go, Linntrument Nektar P1, Novation Launchpad

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tapper mike wrote:I see your point but I also see time and time again that users are voicing concerns about various plugins not supporting 64 bit.

I downloaded Independence Free the other day. After waiting and waiting to get it the only sound that struck my ear as usable was the acoustic piano. None of the rest really satiated my appetite for sound. Had I been a younger happier self and not an old gorilla in the room I would have been greatly pleased with the response. But instead my thoughts were....finally a decent piano that sits in the mix well. Something "Stienway ish" that has the right character and warmth. Not to dark but still has meat not to bright but still has air.

I'm mostly disappointed with plugins. I have to go thru hundreds if not thousands of them. Simply to find something usable that's going to settle in somewhere. Plugins seem to me to be more about fine tuning where as workstation environments are all about performance. I'd rather have one kronos or one pc3k (not that either are in my budget) then everything on the software market combined.

A classic example:
Sometimes I think that developers get too far ahead of themselves and are having so much fun "being creative" in sound design they don't think about usability.
I studied old old school on SSL's mixing down to Struder's. I've been using daw's since windows 3.1 Cakewalk, Cubase, Samplitute, Acid. I couldn't figure out Ableton Live to save my life. The UI especially the FX were quite insane, It took me years to get a grip in Live. I'd go in work it for a few days in a row maybe a week. Watch all the videos read and read and read then get sick of it and hang it on a shelf. Because everything I wanted to do (as opposed to everything it's capable of) I could do with ease in my other daw's.

Maybe I am the grumpy old gorilla in the room listening with "old ears" (culturally) and that stops me from "seeing the big picture of the bright shiny future"
This is an excellent post.

Sometimes: It almost seems like the best solution is good-old hands-on classrooms and workshops that are lead by teachers with practical knowledge that have the ability to communicate...

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