MIDI Data & Time Signature: Does 1/8th triplet grid equal 12/8 time?

[como baila]

I was trying to rearrange a song from SMF. When I synced the drum track with the sequencer grid, the 1/8th triplet grid fit perfectly.

My first question, as I find no time signature information in the midi file (or don't know where to look?)is, does this mean the song is in 12/8 time?

Second question: 12/8 or any triplets already seems to give a 'swing' feel. Is this time signature considered swing already, or is there 12/8 swing as well as 12/8?

Thanks.

Como

[Nystul]

If it is 4 beats per measure and everything fits on that triplet eighth grid, then it could be written as 12/8. If it always follows the shuffle pattern (long-short long-short) it might be written as 4/4 and you swing the eighth notes. For the purpose of a DAW, 12/8 should be exactly the same as 4/4 with triplet eighth note grid. A performing musician might expect to see one or the other depending on the style of the piece.

In my experience the eighth notes in 12/8 are always "straight"... pretty much right on the grid. You get a swing feel in 12/8 if you have quarter note followed by eighth note pattern. You might also see cymbal pattern in 12/8 like eighth note, 2 sixteenth notes, eighth note. Or dotted eighth, sixteenth, eighth. These have a bit of a swing feel by emphasizing the first and last eighth note of the beat.

[como baila]

Thank you, Nystul.

The music in question is 'old time Country Western' ... which is why I was quite sure it was 12/8 and wondered if using the 'grid' would confirm it.

I often see sheet music of similar songs signed 12/8.

I want to import a section of the drum track into Harmony Navigator 2 (HN2) and have a drum preserve it's triplet feel when used with other songs. HN2 needs to know that those 1/8ths for hats and toms are falling on a triplet grid to preserve the timing and feeling.

Como

[jancivil]

I was trying to rearrange a song from SMF. When I synced the drum track with the sequencer grid, the 1/8th triplet grid fit perfectly.

My first question, as I find no time signature information in the midi file (or don't know where to look?)is, does this mean the song is in 12/8 time?

If the original 4/4's triplet = a 12/8 grid, the 12/8 grid will be 150% faster, a 3:2 relationship (1 quarter = 3 8ths:2 8ths). You can express it in 12/8 but the grid is half again as many BPM as the original, if 4/4 with triplets.

Second question: 12/8 or any triplets already seems to give a 'swing' feel. Is this time signature considered swing already, or is there 12/8 swing as well as 12/8?

12/8 seems like a swing comparing it to this 4/4. IE: here you are emphasizing every dotted quarter; there are four of these in 12/8 time.
4/4 has 8 straight 8ths, 12 triplet 8ths.

But one could be emphasizing the quarters of 12/8; there are six of these, = 6/4. And this comparative tripletism/swing feel is not present in that way: 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 &, 2x6 rather than 3x4. NB: triplets compared with that, or 'swung', should you wish to express it in a new signature as you did to arrive at 12/8, now gives you 18/8.
12/8 has 12 straight 8ths, 18 triplet 8ths.

12/8 can be felt as a pulse of four (dotted quarters) but it is not per se 3x4, so 12/8 is not per se the same as triplets. The 3 is what swings compared with a duple pulse. 12/8 and 6/8 are called compound time because both duple and triple division is inherent in them.

[como baila]

If the original 4/4's triplet = a 12/8 grid, the 12/8 grid will be 150% faster, a 3:2 relationship (1 quarter = 3 8ths:2 8ths). You can express it in 12/8 but the grid is half again as many BPM as the original, if 4/4 with triplets.

12/8 seems like a swing comparing it to this 4/4. IE: here you are emphasizing every dotted quarter; there are four of these in 12/8 time.
4/4 has 8 straight 8ths, 12 triplet 8ths.

But one could be emphasizing the quarters of 12/8; there are six of these, = 6/4. And this comparative tripletism/swing feel is not present in that way: 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 &, 2x6 rather than 3x4. NB: triplets compared with that, or 'swung', should you wish to express it in a new signature as you did to arrive at 12/8, now gives you 18/8.
12/8 has 12 straight 8ths, 18 triplet 8ths.

12/8 can be felt as a pulse of four (dotted quarters) but it is not per se 3x4, so 12/8 is not per se the same as triplets. The 3 is what swings compared with a duple pulse. 12/8 and 6/8 are called compound time because both duple and triple division is inherent in them.

Jan, thank you for your detailed response. Most of it is still going over my head. I don't know why I struggle with this ... but hopefully reading it over a couple of times over a few days and maybe searching out other information will permit it to sink in.

If I understand you to this point, I do distill that there is such a thing as 4/4 time with triplets that is not 12/8. Correct?

In this case I must assume that, using a strict grid for note beginnings, 1/8th notes are actually 1/12th notes.

Where I am ignorant and confused is whether those 1/12th notes are normally played in a strict group of 3 over an underlying 1/4 note, or whether they can be used 'willy nilly' in isolation within the measure.

I know there are few absolute rules, but there certainly are traditions.

Time to open up the sequencer and experiment!

Como

[jancivil]

If I understand you to this point, I do distill that there is such a thing as 4/4 time with triplets that is not 12/8.
In this case I must assume that, using a strict grid for note beginnings, 1/8th notes are actually 1/12th notes.

conceptually, yes; the salient difference is that if you express the 4/4 triplets as 12/8, the tempo given for 12/8 to make them work the same must be half again as many BPM. If your 4/4 was 120, 12/8 for the triplet effect = 180. so 3:2, 12:8. So there is a such thing as 4/4 with triplets that is not 12/8, in that 12/8 at the same BPM as the 4/4 is half again as long a measure!
@ 120 BPM, the 4/4 bar takes up two seconds, the 12/8 bar, otherwise expressed 6/4, takes up three seconds. 4/4 ≠ 12/8 until you have set the tempo of the latter by +50%. the dotted quarter, half again the duration of a quarter, half again as fast, is the same value as the former. 12/8 expressed as, felt as four dotted quarters.

Where I am ignorant and confused is whether those 1/12th notes are normally played in a strict group of 3 over an underlying 1/4 note, or whether they can be used 'willy nilly' in isolation within the measure.

while conceptually this 12th notes is useful, I don't know if thinking about them in 4/4 isn't going to be confusing. So I'll just stick with 12/8 for clarity: 12/8 is not 3x4 per se. 2x6 as I showed. 12/8 can be 2+3+3+3+1 for that matter.

But if you want to get cute, you could regroup triplets in any time. The clearest way to think of regrouping them is tying two of them eg., the last triplet of 1/4 to the first of the next 1/4. this is where working with notation is very useful.

As food for thought, you could notice that compounding, starting with the 4/4 to 12/8, then tripleting up the 12/8 to 18/8...

you can do these things and stick to 4/4 and the original tempo: nesting [triplets, tuplets etc].

so your triplets is 3 in the time of 2 8ths [1/4]; you can further do triplets in the time of 2 of the triplets ([3x6=]18 in the time of 8/8 [4/4])...

Cf., 3x3=9 type of move. '9 in the time of 4 [18:8]' might seem somewhat exotic at first but it isn't so unnatural and it happens more than one might think without being arbitrary.

[jovexli]

@ 120 BPM, the 4/4 bar takes up two seconds, the 12/8 bar, otherwise expressed 6/4, takes up three seconds

Generally 12/8 means 4 beats per bar and with each beat having 3 subdivisions. In other words 12/8 == 3/2 (triplet subdivision) * 4/4 (beats per bar). Whereas if you wanted 6 beats per bar with triplet subdivision you would write 18/8 == 3/2 * 6/4.
*Of course you are right that 12/8 could also mean 6/4 or 2+3+3+3+1/8 etc. but I think that mostly it would be taken to indicate 4 beats per bar.

[jancivil]

the nominator of a time signature is the amount of 'beats per bar'. Per se. That is what it's there for, as the indicator of the amount of beats. Twelve_Eighth Note_Beats.

typically, in rock music, say, it's a four feel, but 12 ≠ 4. typically, in certain African music, the 12 is 7+5.

What you quoted me saying is a true statement. I used the 6/4 to make it As Clear As I Could. And further used it to suggest more understanding of three in the time of two. Thank you for regressing the thread though.

One bar of 4/4 at 120 BPM takes up 2 seconds. A bar of 12/8 at 120 BPM takes up 3 seconds. Because it is equal to 6/4. 6/4 = 12/8; 4/4 ≠ 12/8 in the realm of time. 12/8 = 4 Dotted Quarter Notes. If one notated this time signature as a 4 over a dotted quarter, that's clear and that would be four dotted quarter note beats. This is a Twelve over an Eight, which means 12 eighth note beats.

As an answer to the OP which may have confounded the two, this three seconds vs two seconds has to be understood.

[jancivil]

In other words 12/8 == 3/2 (triplet subdivision) * 4/4 (beats per bar). Whereas if you wanted 6 beats per bar with triplet subdivision you would write 18/8 == 3/2 * 6/4..

The yellow emphasis is where you are in error. Understand this: 12/8 is not 4 quarters, it is 4 dotted quarters. You can make 6/4 a four feel by emphasizing dotted quarters just the same as 12/8. Obviously 12/8 is the convenient expression for this. But the 8th notes in the denominator are NOT triplets! The question in the title of the thread is, 'is 12/8 on the grid the same as triplets in 4/4'. The answer is no. You seem to believe the answer is yes. Try it and see if it isn't a tempo relationship of 3:2 to get that result! 12/8 ≠ 4/4. 3 is not 2.
Reality: 12/8 aka 6/4 @ 180 BPM takes the same amt. of time as 8/8 aka 4/4 @ 120 BPM.

When we express 12/8 at the quarter note level it is 6/4. So PER THE QUESTION, 'can you further swing 12/8', you take twos from the 12 [here are 6] and do a 3:2 on those.
Meaning that 18:12 is the same as 12:8; also expressed as 6:4, and 3:2. This should be perfectly clear. Your words provide that 18 = 12, 12 = 8 and so forth.

[Nystul]

If I were going to write a piece with 6 even pulses per measure, I don't believe 12/8 would be a valid choice for the time signature. Mathematically it works, but what is the meaning of it? Why wouldn't it be expressed as 6 (or even split into 3/4 if the shoe fits)? As a compound time signature, 12/8 would imply 4 pulses per measure, with subdivisions of 3. In the African 12 with uneven pulses it could be thought of as a complex meter (2/8 + 3/8 + 2/8 etc). They are two very different situations but 12 is the clearest way to express either.

Unfortunately, things like the DAW metronome don't tend to handle compound or complex very well. I would never write tempo for 12/8 based on the quarter note, but in the software world it's likely to handle it that way. So that is something that if you have to compensate for if you use 12/8 for 4 pulses with 3 subdivisions.

[jovexli]

I was going to write a long post about 12/8 and other compound time signatures but I doubt you'd want to hear it. So here's "12/8 (compound quadruple meter) has four beats divided into three equal parts, i.e., a primary accent on the first quaver, a secondary accent on the seventh quaver, and subordinate accents on the fourth and tenth quavers." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meter_(mus ... ound_meter
And the part I said was theoretically correct but almost never used, "6/8 Theoretically, this can be thought of as the same as the six-quaver form of 3/4 above with the only difference being that the eighth note is selected as the one-beat unit. But whereas the six quavers in 3/4 had been in three groups of two, 6/8 is practically understood to mean that they are in two groups of three, with a two-in-a-bar feel" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signa ... signatures

So a bar of 12/8 really does take the same time as 4/4 at the same BPM, irrespective of DAW, because you are meant to set the bar up to have four beats not six.

Thank you for regressing the thread though.

Also, less of the rudeness please.

[como baila]

Gentlemens, props for the erudition.

It is still a reach over my head, but I'm swimming up to the surface. Hopefully I won't run out of breath.

FWIW, my question arose when I imported a 'professional' midi file of a Country song into Cubase and couldn't figure out why so many of the notes were consistently off the grid. Cubase reported the song as 4/4.

Como

[jancivil]

Thank you for regressing the thread though.

Also, less of the rudeness please.

ah, I see now, you must mean an asterisk for 'times'. So, triplet eighths in 4/4 amount to eighths in 12/8. That's totally redundant and obvious. Hence 'regressing the thread', since I was trying to advance the concept of 3:2.

THIS:

So a bar of 12/8 really does take the same time as 4/4 at the same BPM, irrespective of DAW, because you are meant to set the bar up to have four beats not six.

Is erroneous. It really does take 50% more time.

Exhibit 1) The tempo editor is beats per par, the project window timeline is seconds: One bar of 4/4 = Two Seconds. One bar of 12/8 = Three Seconds.


2) a screen shot of the timeline; for four bars, 4/4. at bar 5 I introduce four dotted quarter beats.

the tempo is shown - for the first four bars @ 120BPM, at bar five @ 180 BPM.


3) now an mp3 revealing that this is the same steady four on the floor.
quarters to dotted quarters

[jancivil]

-->>> I would never write tempo for 12/8 based on the quarter note, but in the software world it's likely to handle it that way.

If you take 12/8 as quarter notes that is 6 quarter notes. If one is going to work with sequencers, one has to know what the realities are. This is the entire point of talking about 6/4. Four beats in 12/8 means four dotted quarters; four quarters in 12/8 takes up 2/3rds of the bar. 12/8 takes up half again the time of 4/4, BPM equal.

If one wishes to express 12/8 as "four beats per bar" -

you are meant to set the bar up to have four beats not six

- in the context here, which is 'what is it objectively on the timeline', one must have the ability in the sequencer to set a time signature of 4 dotted quarters. I don't think so.

what is the meaning of it?

You can examine this 3:2, a hemiola, by looking at it from both vantage points: tap your foot as a 6/4 and clap 4 times [evenly] in that time. That's the dotted quarter here. Now, tap your foot four times at the rate of that clap, and clap six times in that time.

Now, consider your four beats as 4/4. This six claps is triplet quarter notes. There is plenty of meaning in comparing three in the time of two and vice versa. Stating '6/4 is 12/8' is a device for understanding, that I want to teach the OP.

[jancivil]

Note: I was looking for information on nested tuplets in a DAW, shocked that Cubase just told me 'Can't handle nested tuplets' and this thread is linked to. I wasn't exactly looking for trouble.

I was going to write a long post about 12/8 and other compound time signatures but I doubt you'd want to hear it. So here's "12/8 (compound quadruple meter) has four beats divided into three equal parts, i.e., a primary accent on the first quaver, a secondary accent on the seventh quaver, and subordinate accents on the fourth and tenth quavers."

So a bar of 12/8 really does take the same time as 4/4 at the same BPM, irrespective of DAW, because you are meant to set the bar up to have four beats not six.

Nonsense. Again: 12/8 is 4 dotted quarters. "You are meant to set the bar up to have four beats" is not responsive, and it's not objective, it's an opinion. The sequencer is not governed by opinion: Objectively 12/8 is 12 8th notes. 12/8 can be used to do things that are not like triplets over 4/4. It isn't four beats per bar per se. When it is, these are dotted quarters. The dot indicates add half the value to what's dotted. This dotted quarter represents 3 8th notes. The plain quarter represents 2 8th notes. So: 3 is_not 2. 12 is_not 8.

So here's what actually happens: If you set the tempo at 120, 4 quarter notes (or 8 8ths) take 2 seconds. 12 8ths at 120 (4 dotted quarters) takes 3 seconds. That is just reality on planet earth. If you want congruent tempo switching from 4/4 to obtain the same time as triplets without specifying triplets via 12/8, your tempo has to be 50% faster; because in 12/8 the four beats are dotted quarter notes which are 50% longer than plain quarter notes. One mo' 'gin: 12 is half again more than 8; a dotted quarter is half again the duration of a quarter. So the solution is to up the tempo 50%. The other way to look at it is, triplets are 3:2 to the regular value. 3/2 x 120 equals 180.