New algorithmic reverb from SKnote - "Stagespace" - Available NOW - New presets

[quintosardo]

Someone who had a lot of good things to say about Stagespace had me convinced. So yeah... I bought it.

Oh, now I know who he is, and you can hear your great products in Stagespace demos

Sorry you had to go on without a demo, but seriously a full compile is better than a demo. Let me know if it is worth it. I guess you are interested in emulating real spaces. This one can sound huge and reverbs are matter of taste... Pitch knob really helps adding dimension...

Let me know if you are looking for a particular example we can process.I'm always looking for some kind of inspiration.

[cerendir]

Okay, where to begin...

x64 version crashes REAPER instantly. The only other host I have installed is the free Studio One which doesn't do vst's so... can't tell whether this is a REAPER-only issue.

x86 version works for a few minutes in bridged mode after which CPU usage shoots through the roof (and it wasn't modest to begin with IMO) and everything goes crackle-crackle.

(REAPER 4.261 x64, Windows 7, Athlon II X4 630, 8GB RAM, M-Audio Delta Audiophile 2496)

And some first impressions:

- No predelay?!

- The plugin name and the concert hall image in the UI gives you the impression that this is a tool for creating realistic (ish) spaces. As far as I can tell after having used it, it is not. Stagespace is very "sfx" sounding.

- The current ER's are extremely skimpy, sounds like just a single cross-panned delay tap.

- Will actual true stereo operation be implemented eventually?

All in all I'm not overly impressed. Stagespace has potential, at least I got that impression when playing with the parameters. But the CPU load/sound quality ratio is way off, not to mention the severe stability issues. I would love to explore it further but right now it's unusable for me.

Sorry if this is not the place for bug reports.

Edit: see why I prefer an actual demo before parting with money? :/

[cerendir]

Nvm about the predelay thing; I thought the "delay" knob was some ER parameter

[Crackbaby]

Reaper64 is crashes instantly here as well. I played around in reaper64 with 32 bit version of stagespace and didn't encounter the spike. My system is similar to yours with win7 and audiophile 2496.

Another bug: In both Mulab and EnergyXT i've tried to load first Garritan Personal Orchestra followed by stagespace. When i play a note everything is fine, but when i release (or fast turn the instrument volume down to zero) i get a stuttering buffercrackle that echoes out. It doesn't happen in Reaper 32/64 with stagespace 32 bit. (both mulab and xt are 32 bit).
Now, here's the fun part.. if i run a virtual analog like Diva or Tal's UN-O-LX this doesn't happen! I've tried different values of release on the synths but neither instant/gated or long times causes it.

better make a list:

Causes it
Aria Player (garritan personal orchestra)
Alchemy
ACE
Massive
Oxium (but not as much)
Diversion

No Problem
Diva
UN-O-LX
Blade
Charlatan
Lush-101 (demo)
Combo-V
BFD Eco
Corona
TX16Wx 2.0 (beta)
TyrellN6
EZKeys

Here's an interesting situation (really!)
If i have Stagespace as a send effect and i send from Charlatan's rack (in mulab), then everything is fine. But if i add Aria Player to also send, but without playing Aria Player, i start to get the crackling trails when playing Charlatan!
Same thing with TX16Wx and ACE. If i have only a send routed from TX16Wx to stagespace there's no problem. But if i route ACE's send to stagespace i get crackles from playing TX16Wx! As soon as i disconnect ACE from stagespace, TX16Wx looses the crackles! (just turning the send from ACE down to 0 doenst help). Just for clarification - i don't play ACE at all here, only have it connected!

It's only when i release the key (ie audio drops in volume) that this happens - not when actually playing a note.

I hope this is enough details for you to nail this bug I think i've had a similar issue with Grasso but i need to test and see that before i sound the alarm

Apart from this, the sound is great! I hope you can fix the issues soon.

[quintosardo]

Oh, bad guy (Stagespace)

Checking it now.

@cerendir:

No, CPU load isn't normal, a bug showing on your side.

The sound: Stagespace is the "algorithmic in a classic way" one in the range (well all Sknote reverbs are algorithmic, but this one is the one based on delay networks like the classic old ones). ERs: kept to a minimum to get the dimension but not too many out of phase results. The absolute minimum to get the perception of the size.

True stereo? It is true stereo, until I got it wrong? "Split stereo" is separate processing for left and right channels.

An email is the way to go if you don't want to debug and do the work WE must do



@Crackbaby:

Thanks! testing here now. No crazy code inside Stagespace (thinking about Verbtone) so it should be very easy to kill (the bug). All the results you describe, with interaction, make me think of memory allocation errors. The most common and easy to find (uff...) bug.

[quintosardo]

If anybody got issues with the 64 bit Win version, please download again from the same link. Files replaced

[VariKusBrainZ]

[quote="Crackbaby"]

Here's an interesting situation (really!)
If i have Stagespace as a send effect and i send from Charlatan's rack (in mulab), then everything is fine. But if i add Aria Player to also send, but without playing Aria Player, i start to get the crackling trails when playing Charlatan!
Same thing with TX16Wx and ACE. If i have only a send routed from TX16Wx to stagespace there's no problem. But if i route ACE's send to stagespace i get crackles from playing TX16Wx! As soon as i disconnect ACE from stagespace, TX16Wx looses the crackles! (just turning the send from ACE down to 0 doenst help). Just for clarification - i don't play ACE at all here, only have it connected!

It's only when i release the key (ie audio drops in volume) that this happens - not when actually playing a note.
quote]

Sounds like latency issues with your host/soundcard, where adding the extra synth is increasing the latency beyond realtime based on the fact that ACE is a hog and from reports above about Stagespace CPU useage.
What host are you using?

[Crackbaby]

I can run multiple ACE's and other heavy synths and effects so it's not a latency issue. If it were, wouldn't the crackles occur when im actually playing the synth and not when im not? Maybe i could have written my issue more clearer. My hosts, as i wrote, are Mulab, EnergyXT and Live. No issues in Reaper.

[Crackbaby]

Quinto, you mean download from the link with the personalized installer? I did download and replace the old one but reaper still crashed.
The file was created 11:50. Reaper is the only 64bit host i have so i can't test it in other hosts. I downloaded reaper today so it's the latest and stable version.

[quintosardo]

Yes, the same link

No, don't worry, checking again. There was a small issue, looking for the real bug. Trying to make it happen here.
Working on several presets, too.

[quintosardo]

I'm getting lots of different feedback about this reverb.

From "beautiful and natural, I forget it on" to "artificial".

Well it IS artificial. It is delay based. It covers the range of old_style reverbs, even though it doesn't have artifacts or resonances. Used a lot as a compliment to IRs (and the other Sk ones)

[Crackbaby]

I found it to sound very "natural" on a piano. At the moment im more into electronic stuff and i can tell you that it really shines there!

Im not sure if i can demonstrate because the difference is very subtle but noticeable, at least to me. I get a certain dimension to the sound that's still new to me so i must explore it more. ThreeD is a part of this so it's hard to separate them.

Once i can use Aria player im going to explore how it is on classical stuff. From what i tried earlier this morning, despite the crackles, it sounded very good. Better than the one im usually using.

[cerendir]

No, CPU load isn't normal, a bug showing on your side.

Good to hear Haven't had time to test the new build yet, will report back later tonight.

ERs: kept to a minimum to get the dimension but not too many out of phase results. The absolute minimum to get the perception of the size.

I fail to see how this is a good thing. A reverb's character lies largely in the ER's. A smooth tail is of course a good thing but without a sense of space provided by ER's, it's just added mush.

True stereo? It is true stereo, until I got it wrong? "Split stereo" is separate processing for left and right channels.

Then either you got it wrong or there is a bug in the stereo processing too. Split stereo does not sound like true stereo, in fact all the three stereo processing types sound pretty much the same -- even stereo-mono-stereo, which should have centered reflections regardless of how the source is panned. Assuming it's the same as what is usually called "mono to stereo".

split stereo
stereo - mono - stereo
follow the source

As you can hear, the late reflections are hard panned just like the source audio in all three examples, yielding a very unnatural sound. All that happens in the opposite channel is a tiny amount of ER's. This is a couple of examples of what true stereo usually sounds like.

One
Two

So what you have it's not what I would call true stereo, more like parallell stereo with a short initial cross delay.

I'm getting lots of different feedback about this reverb.

From "beautiful and natural, I forget it on" to "artificial".

Well it IS artificial. It is delay based. It covers the range of old_style reverbs, even though it doesn't have artifacts or resonances. Used a lot as a compliment to IRs (and the other Sk ones)

I have nothing against artificial or delay based. Some of the most popular and best sounding hardware reverbs are. Heck, most of my favorite reverb plugins are. But there's artificial and then there's artificial if you know what I mean. Artificial and "providing a real sense of space and depth" are not mutually exclusive.

Right now Stagespace is in the same category as epicVerb, i.e. an effect that gives you very dense, linear late reflections but little in the way of actual room sound and stereo spread. Kind of like a plate reverb. If this is what you were going for when designing the algo, fine, but you should in that case make it clearer so potential customers don't get the wrong idea. Like I said, the name "Stagespace" and the concert hall image instantly conveys the idea of a natural sounding algo reverb, not a retro "digital plate" type of hardware box.

Also, I must add that if you're going to ask $99 for this plugin it's going to have to have something (well, a lot) over its lower priced competitors. Right now it doesn't do anything that ValhallaRoom or even free plugins like freeverb3 and epicVerb can't do. Keep in mind that a $99 price tag will come with a lot of expectations. Stagespace will be in the same price segment as stuff like Redline Reverb and 2C Breeze and, well, it's really not that good. Yet.

Sorry for all the negativity But I'm a reverb junkie and I tend to be a bit harsh on plugins that don't live up to my expectations. Having said that, if you're intrested in my input I'm definitely willing to help you make Stagespace all it can be.

Also, I mainly do orchestral music and I don't find it particularly fitting for that just yet. The main issues being the lack detailed ER's and real true stereo operation. I'm sure it works great for other stuff but that is beyond my expertise.

[cerendir]

Having said that, if you're intrested in my input I'm definitely willing to help you make Stagespace all it can be.

That came out a bit pretentious What I meant was that if there's anything I can do to help make the plugin better, just ask.

[cerendir]

Sorry for three posts in a row, just wanted to report that the x64 version doesn't crash anymore and CPU usage is a bit more reasonable.

Thanks