Live 9 mixing tools video

[Shabdahbriah]

I do see your (IDM) frustration and I have other lesser issues with Live myself, namely: 'rendering', however, I too have never experienced this particular issue.

I run synths through multiples of effects, and effects through multiples of effects, and I just 'sync' it up by ear and feel.

I tend to think it may be more 'work-flow' technique/methodology related, which certainly doesn't invalidate it being an issue for those who's workflow 'style' is affected by it.

[justin3am]

here's what just a PART of my bassline effects chain looks like, please tell me to get in there with a calculator and manually adjust latency compensation to fix the phasing issues

Dude, why not? I'm really not trying to be critical here. Obviously, you have attention for detail, but why stop when you hit a road block. I mean it's natural to get frustrated when something doesn't work the way you expect it to. Hell, I've voiced my opinion Live to the Ableton folks numerous times when something bugged me, but I've never let these kind of issues get in the way of getting something done.

I'm just saying that right now, Ableton Live works, though it does have problems. You can either work around those problems to get something done or you can complain that it doesn't work.

This track was done completely in Live with a bunch of hardware...
http://www.3amnoise.net/archtypical.mp3
so not only did I have to deal with the PDC issues, I also had to deal with Live's sloppy MIDI clock. The bass has nested effects racks which processes the low-end and mid/high-end independently, and there is tons of effect/instrument automation going, on pretty much every track. None of this is difficult. Time consuming, yes, but not difficult.

[Shabdahbriah]

... I also had to deal with Live's sloppy MIDI clock

One of my main issues with it. Are you running an external clock?

None of this is difficult. Time consuming, yes, but not difficult.

Isn't the (that) "challenge" part of the FUN, if not a large part of any perceived "reward"?!!! Necessity/invention and all that.

Certainly is to me.

[IDM Superstar]

here's what just a PART of my bassline effects chain looks like, please tell me to get in there with a calculator and manually adjust latency compensation to fix the phasing issues

Dude, why not? I'm really not trying to be critical here. Obviously, you have attention for detail, but why stop when you hit a road block. I mean it's natural to get frustrated when something doesn't work the way you expect it to. Hell, I've voiced my opinion Live to the Ableton folks numerous times when something bugged me, but I've never let these kind of issues get in the way of getting something done.

I'm just saying that right now, Ableton Live works, though it does have problems. You can either work around those problems to get something done or you can complain that it doesn't work.

This track was done completely in Live with a bunch of hardware...
http://www.3amnoise.net/archtypical.mp3
so not only did I have to deal with the PDC issues, I also had to deal with Live's sloppy MIDI clock. The bass has nested effects racks which processes the low-end and mid/high-end independently, and there is tons of effect/instrument automation going, on pretty much every track. None of this is difficult. Time consuming, yes, but not difficult.

I'm too old for time consuming compromises, already wasted years messing with surround and ambisonics. I want a sequencer to be an instrument in composition, I figured one with "Live" in the title might help, and it almost did.

I like a lot of the sounds you got in there, but then some of my favorite albums were done in Live too, and as a listener I see no problems with their sound quality. However as a producer when I'm sitting there and hearing a kick drum lose a bit of impact I can't accept it as an irrelevant quirk. I'm just glad I never bought the full version of Live.

Although I doubt I'll ever go back to Live myself, I'll have no problem recommending it to friends and students if/when this problem is fixed. I just think the company should be shamed publically a bit cause this shit is shit.

[justin3am]

... I also had to deal with Live's sloppy MIDI clock

One of my main issues with it. Are you running an external clock?

I typically use Live or my MOTU MTP A/V as the master clock. V-Synth, Octatrack, MIDI>CV/clock and various outboard effects are all connected to the MIDI Time Piece. Sometimes I also sync another computer (running Numerology) over LAN. If I'm using Live as the master clock, I edit every audio track manually, so that anything that was sequenced externally is in sync.

None of this is difficult. Time consuming, yes, but not difficult.

Isn't the (that) "challenge" part of the FUN, if not a large part of any perceived "reward"?!!!

Certainly is to me.

Absolutely.

[IDM Superstar]

Woah woah woah you guys are taking it too far.

Blasting through a tune and cutting up beats in a tracker, that's fun.

But fixing a broken daw by manually adjusting starting positions of sounds, sample by sample? uhhh, I don't know what flavor of assburgers you got, but I'd rather go to the beach or something.

[justin3am]

Woah woah woah you guys are taking it too far.

Blasting through a tune and cutting up beats in a tracker, that's fun.

But fixing a broken daw by manually adjusting starting positions of sounds, sample by sample? uhhh, I don't know what flavor of assburgers you got, but I'd rather go to the beach or something.

@ assburgers

I have fun doing my thing. It requires patience but that doesn't mean it's not fun.
Not the same kind of immediate fun as surfing but I have room in life for both kinds of fun.

[penguinfromdeep]

So to round it up guys, can someone answer this one clearly; Is there PDC issue with Live regarding timing of tracks, so that if I have lots of latency inducing plug-ins on tracks some of the tracks would be out of time audibly? Or does it only affect plug-ins that use timing information like LFOTOOL and such plugins? Because I've noticed that my grooves come out flabby even though they sound fine in the beginning but after mixing with lots of plug-ins it somehow starts to sound weird... But I think it's just my skills probably

[IDM Superstar]

So to round it up guys, can someone answer this one clearly; Is there PDC issue with Live regarding timing of tracks, so that if I have lots of latency inducing plug-ins on tracks some of the tracks would be out of time audibly? Or does it only affect plug-ins that use timing information like LFOTOOL and such plugins? Because I've noticed that my grooves come out flabby even though they sound fine in the beginning but after mixing with lots of plug-ins it somehow starts to sound weird... But I think it's just my skills probably

Again, take a kick drum, like an 808. FX rack it, one path has EQ8 set, the other empty.

Click EQ8 off and on while playing back your kick drum.

That's right, Ableton Live is a terrible program, and hardly anyone cares.

The "flat" mixes isn't some summing engine myth, it's the phasing issues introduced when you layer sounds/use racks. Some people ignore it, I can't.

[Shabdahbriah]

Blasting through a tune and cutting up beats in a tracker, that's fun.

"Trackers" have always fascinated me...[makes note-2-self; check in on ReNoise]... every time I see a vid where one is "active in the background" , I get mezmorized like when I would stare at the Windows 95 defrag screen.

I think it has something to do with why I enjoy making OSC's and wavetables so much... it's as much a visual thing, as auditory.

@justin3am: Ditto MTP, and sync over LAN. I network/slave up to four (other) machines (instruments/effects/samples, etc) with my 'master' DAW/sequencer machine.

I'm re-structuring (workflow/purpose) two machines to better handle MIDI (everything) as we speak.. fun stuff.

[penguinfromdeep]

I symphatize with you IDMsuperstar, it seems to be a real issue that needs to be fixed soon... Still I bang out tracks as normal but would've like to see this fixed. I don't use that much racks or parallel processing myself though, just lots of plug-ins that introduce latency. And let's face it, with all the oversampling and circuit emulation going on most of the plug-ins nowadays (or at least the cool ones) seem to introduce some delay

[colinssx]

Are you shitting me, I bought Live 8 literally a day before this was announced...

I really hope Ableton offers free upgrades for people who purchased right before major announcements. Have they ever done that?

Edit:

Woah, seems I've stepped into the middle of something here by blind-posting. All this talk of PDC issues is kind of making me question my purchase, although I have yet to personally experience the problem. Having just switched from Logic it sounds like I might be better off waiting for a fix. Here's hoping I won't have to shell out more money to Ableton for it.

[robogone]

That's right, Ableton Live is a terrible program, and hardly anyone cares.

Perhaps it's "hardly anyone" because the vast majority don't find it a "terrible program"?

Maybe go throw a few more assburgers on the grill and kick back with a beer?

[coroknight]

I just want to say that I didn't pay $500 to have to sync my channels manually.

Option 1: I can just deal with it, but like IDM said, it's uninspiring to hear everything turn to shit once you add some fx.

Option 2: Sync manually. Tedious manual labor, in my opinion. The thought of doing this makes me want to just exit out of Ableton and do something else.

I didn't pay good money to have to deal with either of those options. If I knew about these issues earlier I would have seriously considered getting something else. I have hope for live 9 though... And bitwig.

[Guenon]

Take a kick drum that goes THUMP, split it in two. On one side add EQ8, don't even bother changing any parameters. Leave the other empty, listen to the output.

Click EQ8 on and off to hear the difference. If you don't hear your THUMP turning into a bit more of a DONK then congratulations, you're not a producer.

Just tested this. Took a clip, slapped on a rack with one empty chain and one chain with an EQ8. The output is identical with the EQ8 on and off.

To make sure, I also duplicated the channel and flipped its phase. Total silence, no matter whether both EQ8s are on, only one of them, or neither. Even took the EQ8 out of the duplicated track, leaving it with two empty rack chains, and turned the other channel's EQ8 on and off repeatedly. The tracks null in every single case.

I don't hear the difference because there isn't any.