Composing in 5.1
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- KVRAF
- 37378 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net
I want to try doing this, a lot of my work would sound great in surround but I haven't a clue how to start. I know in Logic some of the plugins I use such as Absynth and Alchemy give me a 5.1 option at startup but can I also convert existing tracks? How do people compose for surround?
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- KVRist
- 163 posts since 1 Feb, 2006
I do everything in surround and then downmix later (if needed) for stereo (e.g. MP3). Surround is incredibly freeing, and I'm amazed more composers don't go ga-ga for the spatial capabilities.
Eventually you'll want an audio interface with at least 8-outs so you can have a simultaneous stereo and 5.1 bus, which makes it nice to swap between both routings. I use Sonar for this, so your mileage may vary.
Composing a new surround track is different (to me) than upmixing an old stereo track. You can get quality results both ways, but in upmixing, your hands are tied and you get fewer choices. Its almost like a different skill set.
When composing orchestral surround, I try to think of interesting effects (like placing an alpenhorn in the back of the hall, or having the choir in the back (like some churches). Electric music can include more sounds in motion around the soundfield.
I find most surround mixes very timid these days. I miss the early days of 5.1 where mixers just went to extremes. You have to be pretty blatant to get someone to even acknowledge a spatial effect, so I save subtlety for the actual music. The mix should be pretty ear-grabbing!
Eventually you'll want an audio interface with at least 8-outs so you can have a simultaneous stereo and 5.1 bus, which makes it nice to swap between both routings. I use Sonar for this, so your mileage may vary.
Composing a new surround track is different (to me) than upmixing an old stereo track. You can get quality results both ways, but in upmixing, your hands are tied and you get fewer choices. Its almost like a different skill set.
When composing orchestral surround, I try to think of interesting effects (like placing an alpenhorn in the back of the hall, or having the choir in the back (like some churches). Electric music can include more sounds in motion around the soundfield.
I find most surround mixes very timid these days. I miss the early days of 5.1 where mixers just went to extremes. You have to be pretty blatant to get someone to even acknowledge a spatial effect, so I save subtlety for the actual music. The mix should be pretty ear-grabbing!
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- KVRer
- 21 posts since 2 Oct, 2011
I'm the exact opposite from maxmace. I do not like shakers wizzing past my head in all directions. I'd prefer a surround mix to be some what modest. When mixing film/soundtracks in 5.1, I start with the mix in stereo and later open it up to 5.1
5.1 can be pretty liberating.. in stereo you're usually trying to make every sound fit in a small space but when you're mixing in surround you're able to pan each different sound to a different speaker.
There are no hard rules (everyone does it different) for surround. Just start listening to a lot of 5.1 mixes to get your own style.
- b
5.1 can be pretty liberating.. in stereo you're usually trying to make every sound fit in a small space but when you're mixing in surround you're able to pan each different sound to a different speaker.
There are no hard rules (everyone does it different) for surround. Just start listening to a lot of 5.1 mixes to get your own style.
- b
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- KVRist
- 163 posts since 1 Feb, 2006
I was just contrasting (for example) a DTS mix circa 1995 with a current treatment, which IMO lacks a certain spirit of adventure and innovation.I'd prefer a surround mix to be some what modest
This opens up another issue. When the matrix fold-down occurs, what you describe becomes impossible (if it was ever desirable). Pro logic and the AC3 fold down (to what is essentially pro logic) only allows you to perform a single surround pan at a time. (Someone who is better with math can probably explain this to me).I do not like shakers wizzing past my head in all directions.
Of course, if you are only concerned with a discrete multichannel format, then you don't have to worry about this limitation.
I see this type of advice a lot, but it makes more sense to me to create the version I want first, and then go back and do a "compromise" stereo mix. I'd compare it to filming the original in 3D, or one of those 3D post conversion treatments.I start with the mix in stereo and later open it up to 5.1
The ideal situation is that you have all your discrete track stems available for the new surround mix. But (like I said) if you only have a stereo AIFF file, creating surround remix really takes a different mindset and a different group of skills.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 37378 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net
Hi thanks
so at the moment the tracks I'm thinking of are all in midi anyway, but I selected the stereo versions of the plugins, can I change those to 5.1 versions without changing the track?
so at the moment the tracks I'm thinking of are all in midi anyway, but I selected the stereo versions of the plugins, can I change those to 5.1 versions without changing the track?
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- KVRist
- 163 posts since 1 Feb, 2006
Hi, Stephen. You're working in Logic? Allow me to make a confession: I use Sonar, and although it seems to handle surround VSTs differently than other surround hosts, it is very good at bridging stereo plugins into to the surround world.
My guess is that when you add a surround bus, Logic will give you a surround panner for your midi sound sources, but stereo effects plugins may not be handled the way you hope.
I would create a project with a surround bus (5.1 is fine to start), add a surround instrument and if you are happy with that, add a stereo instument and see how the panning works. I believe Logic provides surround versions of its bundled effects?
If Logic's surround panner includes an "LFE Send" checkbox, make sure it is not EQ-ing the lows out of your normal channels. In fact, you can possibly ignore the LFE channel to begin with, if your setup performs its own bass managment crossover scheme.
If you do have an LFE channel, EQ it to about a 80 or 90 Hz lowpass cutoff, so that the upper frequencies can't pass. When I got started I assumed this would be handled automatically, but it is not, and it will sound like crunchy alias noise once the AC3 encoder gets ahold of it (and will still sound wrong even as an uncompressed stream).
My guess is that when you add a surround bus, Logic will give you a surround panner for your midi sound sources, but stereo effects plugins may not be handled the way you hope.
I would create a project with a surround bus (5.1 is fine to start), add a surround instrument and if you are happy with that, add a stereo instument and see how the panning works. I believe Logic provides surround versions of its bundled effects?
If Logic's surround panner includes an "LFE Send" checkbox, make sure it is not EQ-ing the lows out of your normal channels. In fact, you can possibly ignore the LFE channel to begin with, if your setup performs its own bass managment crossover scheme.
If you do have an LFE channel, EQ it to about a 80 or 90 Hz lowpass cutoff, so that the upper frequencies can't pass. When I got started I assumed this would be handled automatically, but it is not, and it will sound like crunchy alias noise once the AC3 encoder gets ahold of it (and will still sound wrong even as an uncompressed stream).
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- KVRAF
- 2175 posts since 10 Mar, 2006
He wasn't arguing with you either. Just clarifying what he meant by elaborating on his point of view for us here. No need to think everything is 'me vs everyone else', that's so primitive. Everyone knows that Internet forums are a limited form of expression when it comes to feeling and nuisance. Just chill!bbell wrote:I was just stating my own personal opinion. I wasn't arguing with you
"The educated person is one who knows how to find out what he does not know" - George Simmel
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"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." - Jesus Christ
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- KVRAF
- 6502 posts since 25 May, 2002 from Bobo-dioulasso\BF__Geneva/CH
Out of curiosity, what would you guys eventually recommend as vstFX in a 5.1 environment ?
For instance :
- i'm not at a first impression really excited by the uhbick collection when (quickly) listened in stereo, but if there's someone experienced here, i'd like to have his impressions when used in surround context as they are suppose to handle most kind of these environments ?
For instance :
- i'm not at a first impression really excited by the uhbick collection when (quickly) listened in stereo, but if there's someone experienced here, i'd like to have his impressions when used in surround context as they are suppose to handle most kind of these environments ?
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 37378 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net
Logic very usefully displays which plugins support 5.1 natively when you try and insert them. So far out of my instruments, apart from the main Logic synths, only several Native Instruments plugins seem to support 5.1 - Absynth, Reaktor, Kontakt, Battery and Kore 2 all do. Bidule seems to have a 5.1 version though so one could use that or Kore 2 to create multi plugin instruments that are 5.1 capable.
Out of effects many switch to "multi mono" when I insert a 5.1 instrument but Metaplugin, all Apple AUs, Uhbiks, DFX Transverb (amazingly), Virsyn Reflect, the NI ones I mentioned (not it seems Guitar Rig though) and all Sinevibes plugins are reporting 5.1 modes.
hmm some, such as my 2C Audio reverbs, seem to disappear off the list completely when I insert a 5.1 instrument, not sure why but you would expect them to support surround really.
Out of effects many switch to "multi mono" when I insert a 5.1 instrument but Metaplugin, all Apple AUs, Uhbiks, DFX Transverb (amazingly), Virsyn Reflect, the NI ones I mentioned (not it seems Guitar Rig though) and all Sinevibes plugins are reporting 5.1 modes.
hmm some, such as my 2C Audio reverbs, seem to disappear off the list completely when I insert a 5.1 instrument, not sure why but you would expect them to support surround really.