Improving music/keyboard skills... what to do

[Hink]

I rarely post in here because of those people but I do read a lot because first there are some awesome people in this forum who are real and offer great learning experiences. Second you can learn from those who look down on you and why not? As I have said before...you dont have to like someone to learn from them. Their arrogance is their problem, but if they want to give away their knowledge I wont complain...their ego and need to be better than the rest of us does nothing for them but does improve my experience as a musician.

With that said, those who talk to us and not down to us or at us...thank you

That's framing what is in reality a personal attack in SUCH a cute way, as if to disguise it. I know where I stand in the world very well. I have no need to be anything I'm not. I need to be better in music than I was yesterday. The approbation of people here is of no moment to me. I am not comparing myself to a 'Tricky Loops', I am addressing what is said.

I have an opinion that people need to make into this 'elitist' as if there is some intrinsic moral value in making equal all persons. There are elites in fields. There are people that sought to attain a level of accomplishment. I imagine you have done. I think it's a little bit sick to try and make people ashamed like this.

not here, not now, not ever... get use to it as I will never have anything else to say to you...please stop twisting my words and just leave me alone as I have never attacked you here or anywhere.

[robogone]

You're presenting a mental age of about ten right now, son.

I was wondering how long it would be before your nasty side came out to accompany your arrogant elitist side

[Tricky-Loops]

that's not the point...the point comes down to creative thinking vs critical thinking. Math requires critical thinking and proof of concept...in music there should be no such thing. Like a famous quote says Use what talents you possess: the woods would be very silent if no birds sang there except those that sang best.

So again, the question comes back to who has the right to say what is right or wrong in music? While with math there are ways to prove what is right or wrong...that's the point vurt is trying to make I believe.

Music theory is kind of mathematic. So if someone is making music strictly according to music theory, he is making a mathematical music. OTOH everyone is free to be creative by making music that goes above theory. In art there is no right or wrong. There is just "I like it" or "I don't like it". You can even make microtonal or atonal music...

[jancivil]

You, vurt, just implied that music is just a great free-for-all.

thats how you read it perhaps.

what is there then, John? Are you going to, seriously, stand behind 'in music there are no right answers'? It's rather all-encompassing and absolute, is it not? Do you seriously believe it's a proper answer to what I said? There are wrong answers in music, actually. There are procedures in a particular practice style that produce better results, that if you ignore them you will produce worse results, per that style requirement. You do not make that vanish by some high-flying blanket assertion.

there are many choices in music, the final decision being "right" in the sense thats its an artistic choice. and different people have different requirements from making music, so what is right for you may not be right for thers, so in vague terms there are no right answers in comparison with mathematics which gives an absolute undeniable solution, no artistic choice.

the point comes down to creative thinking vs critical thinking. Math requires critical thinking and proof of concept...in music there should be no such thing.

So again, the question comes back to who has the right to say what is right or wrong in music? While with math there are ways to prove what is right or wrong...that's the point vurt is trying to make I believe.

If you're trying to write proper counterpoint, the chances are pretty good that the professor knows better than you do. That is my point. It is nothing beyond that. Here is an exception to this grand "there is no right answer in music". There are wrong answers in music. There would tend to be more than one right answer in what I'm talking about, but this 'no right answer' isn't thought through I don't think.

Also the assertion that maths are always absolute is ignorant of higher maths. there can be more than one thing done in an elaborate mathematical argument, actually.

Music requires critical thinking, are you really saying there should be no such thing as critical thinking in music? I think you weren't, just the sentence got away from you.

vurt's point in reply to mine is completely obvious to everyone but it does not make 'there is no right answer in music' true. My own music is extremely risky a lot of the time.

[jancivil]

I rarely post in here because of those people but I do read a lot because first there are some awesome people in this forum who are real and offer great learning experiences. Second you can learn from those who look down on you and why not? As I have said before...you dont have to like someone to learn from them. Their arrogance is their problem, but if they want to give away their knowledge I wont complain...their ego and need to be better than the rest of us does nothing for them but does improve my experience as a musician.

With that said, those who talk to us and not down to us or at us...thank you

please stop twisting my words

Which ones? Am I the person you don't like but learn from or the person you took the opportunity to pointedly not thank? Or do you mean SJ Digriz?? Come on.

I have an ego, who is without ego that strives? But this 'arrogant' emphasis, and talking down to someone, is that necessary? In truth, you have come at me before with this exact thrust, with a vengeance, going out of your way to.

My ego and insecurity does a lot for me, I am ambitious and an overachiever. That is probably true of you to some extent. But I suppose you are conditioned to see that as a bad thing. Try and not make that someone else's problem, eh?

[lingyai]

Just as in the Market Place forum there are two Bargains sub-forums -- bargains only with no chat, vs. chat about baragins, we could have two sub-forums here -- music theory, vs all the all the other stuff you see here

[robogone]

But this 'arrogant' emphasis, and I am talking down to someone, is just personal bile

Not really. John is not alone in saying this, and it is never said to you except in response to very specific things you post.

I'm tempted to add that it's arrogant to say that you are right and everyone else is wrong, but I'm sure that would go over your head just as much as the other comments about arrogance that you elicit.

You really could do much more for this community if only you would stop being so in denial of the criticisms leveled at you so often.

[jancivil]

Improving keyboard skills isn't strictly a Music Theory question for that matter.

Your hypocrisy 'linyai' is entertaining, you have contributed nothing to the discussion of keyboard skills yourself, in this very old thread that went awry because the usual suspects have this elitist axe to grind, mostly, but now you're Miss Manners policing the thread.

[lingyai]

[lingyai]

In truth, Jan, you make this a very tense part of KVR

[jancivil]

But this 'arrogant' emphasis, and I am talking down to someone, is just personal bile

Not really. John is not alone in saying this, and it is never said to you except in response to very specific things you post.

I'm tempted to add that it's arrogant to say that you are right and everyone else is wrong, but I'm sure that would go over your head just as much as the other comments about arrogance that you elicit.

You really could do much more for this community if only you would stop being so in denial of the criticisms leveled at you so often.

John and I have a backstory. He's taken time out of his life to ridicule me publicly. I have gone at him. I know what he has said and what I said about the prior thrust is not inaccurate. So you agree with that. You are taking the opportunity to be personally critical out of what, that you have a different point of view? You strongly feel you're right, at what I think is the same quality as me on the opposite side.
What is specifically arrogant about what I said? I have had it with the childish trolling of Tricky Loops and I finally said something?

What are you doing for the community piling on me? You got bruised during argumentation, yours isn't very good here. If you're very delicate, being argumentative for the sake of it is an odd thing to do. Is that mean? Is you trying, not for the first time, to shame me for stating my opinion strongly very kind?

[ghettosynth]

Also the assertion that maths are always absolute is ignorant of higher maths. there can be more than one thing done in an elaborate mathematical argument, actually.

Certainly, however, I think that this misses the essence of the point, which was perhaps, poorly articulated.

There are often many ways to get from theorem to proof, however, the essence of the matter is that one proves theorems. In other words, there is a, and sometimes many, correct answer(s), namely a proof of the theorem. There are also incorrect answers, i.e., those "proofs" which fail to achieve their goal.

We can clearly identify and distinguish good proofs and better proofs and this can be based on aesthetic as well as (sometimes) more objective measures. We can also identify incorrect proofs. One cannot, however, recast an incorrect proof as mathematics because it is aesthetically pleasing, no matter how artistically it's expressed. Consequently, by definition, one needs a certain amount of training, which can be self-taught, in order to produce correct mathematical output.

Certainly a lot of music also has some notion of correctness with respect to some definition, which may be fairly strict, or quite loose. It is reasonable to say, in fact, that X is not a correct Y, but, that doesn't mean X is not music. It may not be correct with respect to some definition, but unlike a an incorrect proof, it is simply music that fails to meet the definition, not non-music.

Music requires critical thinking, are you really saying there should be no such thing as critical thinking in music? I think you weren't, just the sentence got away from you.

No, music CAN require critical thinking. It can also be produced by those completely devoid of any desire to engage in critical thinking.

vurt's point in reply to mine is completely obvious to everyone but it does not make 'there is no right answer in music' true. My own music is extremely risky a lot of the time.

I agree, there are many right/wrong answers in music, but, music that fails any such test is still music. If one wants to engage in the production of "correct" music, then one must learn whatever techniques are appropriate to meet the required level of correctness demanded by their choice(s) of style. They may fail to do so, but that doesn't mean that their output is not music.

[robogone]

in this very old thread that went awry because the usual suspects have this elitist axe to grind.

Cause and effect. Remember that the ax only ever comes out when the oft commented behavior is repeated without any consideration of the fact that there may be substance in what anyone else has to say

[jancivil]

In truth, Jan, you make this a very tense part of KVR

and people being morons like Tricky Loops is irritating for me.

Who is forcing you to read this thread? This is mostly what you come here to do, say this shit to me?

[jancivil]

in this very old thread that went awry because the usual suspects have this elitist axe to grind.

Cause and effect. Remember that the ax only ever comes out when the oft commented behavior is repeated without any consideration of the fact that there may be substance in what anyone else has to say

If you go back through the thread, you'll see that your chronology is backwards.

SJ Digriz didn't agree that everyone is a musician. There may be substance in 'everyone that creates music is by definition a musician'? Maybe so. So people argue their points. YOU, sir, came in to paint him as elitist and to make a straw man to beat up real hard. Putting words in his mouth and by extension all that would agree with his point. I think that isn't any good. If you need to create a persona, a villain out of me saying that, knock yourself out. You came in with that fight on your mind I think.